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Split pistols at a major match


Renegade Roper

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Background:  Heluva Rukus is the NYS CAS Championship and gets around 200 shooters (used to be close to 275 four or five yrs ago).  I wrote the stages this year (they can be found at www.circlekregulators.com) with stage 5 having a "split" pistol where you shot one pistol then moved about 6' and shot the other.  It was suggested to me that this wasn't a true split pistol stage as there wasn't another gun in between the pistols and that a major match should include at least 2 or 3 split pistol stages with at least one being a true split pistol stage.  Here are the pros and cons that have been given:

Pros:

Gunfighters (or categories that can shoot gunfighter) only make up 10% of the shooters and by not having true split pistol stages you are taking away stage options that the other 90% of shooters like in order to accommodate a small minority of shooters.

Gunfighters need to be able to shoot true split pistol stages, you can’t write a match to make it easier on one particular category.

Good gunfighters have no issue with a true split thrown in.

Cons:

It's a definite disadvantage to a gunfighter to shoot a true split pistol stage.

If I wanted to shoot duelist I would have entered the duelist category.

Lefties (or people that generally shoot a stage right to left) only make up less than 10% of shooters. Most major matches have stages that let you start on either end position so you can shoot left to right or right to left or if they have a left to right stage they also have a stage that forces you to go right to left.  So if you don't make an accommodation for gunfighters because they are a minority of shooters then you shouldn't make one for lefties either.

Most 2 handed shooters don't care if you have a true split pistol stage and would be just as happy with a regular split pistol stage which doesn't force a gunfighter to shoot in a category that's not the primary category they entered.

 

We travel quite a bit and have been to numerous state and above matches.  We've been to the last 2 EOT's (PHX and IN) and the last 7 or 8 Winter Ranges.  I do not recall seeing any true split pistol stages at these major matches (although I am prone to senior moments, LOL).  I recognize there are differences in what people do or don't do in different regions of the country.  I also realize that what people encounter at monthly matches is generally not what's done at state and above (for this reason I am only really interested in the perspective of a state and above match).  Because it's important to me to make this the best match I can, I  thought I would poll the SASS wire for your thoughts on this issue.  First, have I forgotten any pros or cons?  Second would you not attend a match, as either a gunfighter or 2 handed shooter, because there either were or weren't true split pistol stages and why?  Third please include what region of the country you are from so I can see if it's just a regional difference.  Thank you for your input!

Roper

 

 

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Pistol, something else, pistol, other gun.
or

Pistol move pistol, rifle and shotgun.

 

I very rarely see either option, and I would consider either to be a "split pistol" scenario.   I like te occasional split pistol scenario, it mixes things up. 

 

At a big shoot, let's say 10+ stages spread over 2 days, I don't care if there are 0, 1, 5, or if all of the stages are split pistol.  I just shoot at the targets, try for a clean match and have fun.  :)


I think your complainers don't have a legitimate complaint.

And remember, there is no requirement for a gunfighter to draw both pistols at once.   The one time I shot gunfighter, just to try it, there was a stage where it was pistol, move, pistol, etc.  All of the other gunfighters drew both pistols, shot the first five targets, awkwardly kept their pistols pointed downrange, moved to the second position and shot the second five targets.   I drew my left pistol, shot the first five, holstered, moved to the right, drew, shot, holstered, and then moved on to rifle and shotgun.    Perfectly allowable within the rules.

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As a gunfighter forever most of us do not object to split pistols as long as the stage can indeed be shot true gunfighter. If say pistol, rifle, pistol provide an adequate area to set them down and then pick up again to finish. No moving with a long gun between. I HATE being forced to shoot a stage duelist. If one chooses to, it's on the shooter. If pistol, move, pistol is fine. My opinion anyway.

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not a gunfighter and not sure if I am reading scenario correctly but if scenario is pistol move pistol rifle shotgun or something along those lines couldn't the shooter stay gunfighter and make sure hammer down on expended round, shoot five, muzzles under control and down range in compliance with the 170 move then continue with second five? With a safe staging area couldn't they just shoot pistols move restage, shoot rifle/shotgun engage second five shots then holster with the same cautions (hammer on empty, muzzles within 170) and go on?

pages 7 and 14 respectively of the SHB

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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Gunfighters and Duelists are shooting against shooters in their own categories, not against everyone else, unless they believe they can be the Overall Top Shooter of a match.  If anyone wants to be the overall top shooter of any match then as they say, "practice makes perfect".

I do not want to hijack the original post, but since this is about how to shoot stages, why do 95% of all rifle strings and pistol strings have to be the same? 

 

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As a two handed shooter it makes no difference to me but if you place a gun between the pistols with movement or no where to stage the pistols it forces a gunfighter to become a duelist and effectively knocks them out of the running for overall.  Why would you want to do that and risk those shooters not returning to your shoot ?

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So what you guys are saying is, if someone DECIDES to shoot Gunfighter or Duelist, then the stage writers have to write ALL the stages to be friendly to them whether the other 90% of the shooters would like to see things mixed up so THEY can win.  

 

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Why not GF for overall? Very few could manage that anyway. We really don't have the unfair advantage that some think. Fast traditional shooters are always faster, except for maybe a few shooters. Keep stages fair for all and not unnecessarily handicapping the gunfighters.

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As a Gunfighter...

I love shoot 5, move, shoot 5.

I think it is a lot of fun.

 

As a Gunfighter...

I am ok with shoot 5, stage pistols, do something else, pickup pistols, shoot 5.

As long as a safe and suitable area is available for the staging and pickup.

 

As a Gunfighter...

I detest stages that do not allow me to shoot gunfighter (forcing Double Duelist) because of lack of staging opportunity or requiring a change of location between pistols with something else in hand precluding handgun carry.

 

At a major match - IF stage design/ stage writing forces Double Duelist upon me (especially if it happens more than once), I will simply find somewhere else to shoot the next year.

 

There are innumerable ways to write AND SET fun, enjoyable stages that entail variety and fun AND do so without forcing shooters out of their CHOSEN shooting style. 

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1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

So what you guys are saying is, if someone DECIDES to shoot Gunfighter or Duelist, then the stage writers have to write ALL the stages to be friendly to them whether the other 90% of the shooters would like to see things mixed up so THEY can win.  

 

No - what we are saying is IF the stage writer is a quality match director - he or she will take the time and effort to write stages that do not penalize any shooter for the choices they make.

 

Split pistols are fine (either movement between two positions or actions/ other firearm between pistols) - IF the stage design allows the shooter opportunity to remain within their chosen shooting style.

But writing a stage or setting a stage that forces shooters out of their chosen style is unnecessary and lacks imagination.

 

Only an extremely POOR stage writer or match director would ever include a stage that DELIBERATELY or knowingly places any shooter at a disadvantage to any other - whether within category or not.

 

That means looking at every permutation of shooting (and shooters) and the affect stage writing/ stage design has upon them (BP shooters in enclosed buildings, SxS shooters and vertical staging, left handers, short and tall folks, etc. etc. etc.)

 

I don't write matches worried about who wins - I write matches with the minimum impediments possible so EVERY single shooter has the opportunity to utilize their practiced skillsets and demonstrate the very best performance they are capable of.

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I have a shoot book from WR2002. They only shot 10 stages then. About half of the stages had split pistols and different sweeps with each pistol. We had many more shooters then. And, fewer categories. Those were difficult stages, procedurals were common, clean matches were not. 

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14 hours ago, Renegade Roper said:and that a major match should include at least 2 or 3 split pistol stages with at least one being a true split pistol stage.

and that a major match should include at least 2 or 3 split pistol stages with at least one being a true split pistol stage. 

 

I think that the above is bad advice. 
Why force people to shoot outside of the way they normally do?

There is a bunch of ways other ways to provide a challenge in stage design to keep it interesting.

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11 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

As a Gunfighter...

I detest stages that do not allow me to shoot gunfighter (forcing Double Duelist) because of lack of staging opportunity or requiring a change of location between pistols with something else in hand precluding handgun carry.

 

At a major match - IF stage design/ stage writing forces Double Duelist upon me (especially if it happens more than once), I will simply find somewhere else to shoot the next year.

 

I couldn't agree more! All that's needed is a place to stage the pistols in between the pistol strings. 

At a local annual a stage was written that said, "Gunfighters must shoot it DD", it didn't sit well with me then or now. I was surprised just how much it bothered, even angered me. 

A match director should do everything in their power to make a stage shootable for every category, then it becomes the shooters choice as to how to proceed.

Tully

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15 hours ago, Renegade Roper said:

Lefties (or people that generally shoot a stage right to left) only make up less than 10% of shooters. Most major matches have stages that let you start on either end position so you can shoot left to right or right to left or if they have a left to right stage they also have a stage that forces you to go right to left.  So if you don't make an accommodation for gunfighters because they are a minority of shooters then you shouldn't make one for lefties either.

Something to keep in mind is that for those of us who shoot long guns off the left shoulder, moving left to right on a stage makes it awkward to carry the long gun, much like moving right to left affects the right handed shooter.  It can also be a safety issue with newer, less experienced shooters.  As to the gunfighter part, I'm not interested in placing or winning my category, so I'm not bothered by shooting double duelist.

 

With 25+ years of shooting SASS, including all Heluva Ruckus matches from 2000 to present, I'll note that you will never make 100% of the shooters happy, the top shooters will always win regardless of how the stages are written and  complicated stages affect the less skilled shooters a lot more than the top shooters.

 

Another suggestion is to look at the scores from this year and see if any stage had more misses, procedurals or slow times than what would be reasonably expected compared to the other stages.

 

And you did a very good job of writing the stages this year.

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Gunfighters are a minority of shooters, and gunfighters who get the ump over split pistols are even a smaller minority, which one might never even cross paths with.  I have noticed in my experience that when there is a split pistol stage, gunfighters do tend to shoot double duelist and have no qualms about it, and the largest reason for this is simply so they can engage the stage and not even have to pay attention to NOT cocking that 6th round at the wrong place and time.

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Here's something I've learned about writing scenarios, most shooters don't appreciate well written stages, they like simplicity. Well written stages are appreciated by gunfighters, duelists, and the top 10%. Most don't realize a stage that is written with all aspects; left-hand, right-hand, duelists, gunfighter. tall, short, etc. People enjoy a match and they return, stage writing is just a small part of the pie. 

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Here's something I've learned about writing scenarios, most shooters don't appreciate well written stages, they like simplicity. Well written stages are appreciated by gunfighters, duelists, and the top 10%. Most don't realize a stage that is written with all aspects; left-hand, right-hand, duelists, gunfighter. tall, short, etc. People enjoy a match and they return, stage writing is just a small part of the pie. 

 

You are probably totally correct.   But when that small part of the pie is made with salt instead of sugar..... well, the whole pie is usually

discarded.  

 

There are a lot of small parts of a major match that help make it a success or failure:   Vendors (food and Cowboy stuff),

organization, target setup and props, etc..... and even the weather.

 

Making the shooters happy with stage scenarios plays a big part which is the reason match directors

and stage writers work overtime to avoid stages that might have a 'P' trap.  

And also when those Match Directors go to great strides to set up 10-12 stages that

will completely accommodate all styles of shooting, and all sizes of shooters.    They establish staging tables that are not toooooo short nor toooooo tall, and window/door frames with appropriate size as not to hinder tall shooters,

although tall shooters are only a small percentage,  etc...........

 

Yep, you're right..... its a small piece of the pie.    But it takes all the right ingredients to make it tasteful and enjoyable.

 

Have a good day.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

So what you guys are saying is, if someone DECIDES to shoot Gunfighter or Duelist, then the stage writers have to write ALL the stages to be friendly to them whether the other 90% of the shooters would like to see things mixed up so THEY can win.  

 

I have shot Duelist for a good while and I don’t particularly know what an unfriendly duelist stage would be unless you force me to shoot everything left to right? I will say I have a better chance of keeping closer to a 2-handed shooter if there are more single taps than multi taps but I’ll shoot what there is.. I don’t like odd angles where I don’t have the option to get in front of the targets. 
 

Randy 

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No two handed shooter would have to shoot duelist style.


The "question" is if Gunfighters would need to shoot "double duelist" style if there are split pistols.

 

Let's quote the Shooter's Handbook...

Gunfighter Style

- Gunfighter style is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed. There is no set pattern as to how the revolvers are to be fired, but alternating revolvers is clearly the most efficient.

- Only Gunfighter style or Double Duelist style may be used.

 

Double Duelist IS a type of Gunfighter shooting.   In a "split pistol" stage, it might be more efficient for the Gunfighter to use this style than Gunfighter style.

It's entirely up to the shooter.

 

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55 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Double Duelist IS a type of Gunfighter shooting.   In a "split pistol" stage, it might be more efficient for the Gunfighter to use this style than Gunfighter style.

It's entirely up to the shooter.

 

Let me correct you a little bit.

Double Duelist is ALLOWED within Gunfighter EXACTLY the same as Duelist is ALLOWED within two handed supported categories.

 

It is NOT mandatory unless it is FORCED upon the Gunfighter due to lack of staging options, stage design or bad stage writing.

 

If a Gunfighter having the OPTION to shoot Gunfighter CHOOSES to utilize Double Duelist - that is on them.

Exactly the same as a supported shooter CHOOSING to shoot Duelist on a given stage.

But if the Gunfighter is FORCED to shoot Double Duelist - it is not about efficiency - it is about stage writing.

 

So for all that say that Double Duelist IS a form of Gunfighter and the forced inclusion is acceptable - I contend that supported shooters should be just as welcoming to the inclusion of forced Duelist within your shooting.

But try that sometime and let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.

 

Write stages with split pistol positions - write stages with pistols split by other actions or firearm - all we ask is that you provide staging options so that we may shoot Gunfighter style.

 

Or if you are simply going to insist on forcing Gunfighters to shoot Duelist - then at least have the consistency to force other shooters to do the same.

Let me know how that goes for you.

 

 

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Adding to my post as I didn't answer the initial question.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with split pistol stages, so long as all categories can shoot the stage as they choose to do so within their categories rules. A simple flat spot to set pistols down, is all that's need for a Gunfighter wishing not to shoot Double Duelist.

 

Good post/topic,

 

Tully

 

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Well - Cowboy “Action” Shooting is an entertainment sport/game. Keeping attendance high at clubs is important to ensure CAS stays around for quite some time. Attendance depends on the shooting fun factor (as that is what initially brings shooters to a match). If the match is frustrating to shooters, and as I say, has a low “Dopamine Fix Rating” (DFR), then attendance will tend to be low for future matches.
So as a two-handed shooter, I don’t mind “true” split pistols. As a gunfighter, I do mind “true” split pistols, as I would be shooting for overall (not just my category). Why? It slows down the gunfighter, being forced to shoot double dullest or restaging (and picking up) both pistols to shoot gunfighter.

Would I attend a match if I knew there were “true” split pistols? If shooting gunfighter, probably not, but depends on the match/range I’m attending.

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It's about time MD started sticking it to the Gunfighters ! and all the other Smokie Less shooters....

For most of two decades Stages were written "starting on the Left " ,,,, so often those that shoot the real powder are blowing smoke onto their next targets...

Or stages ... Dump five on target 1 then dump five on target 2... Probably Starting on the left ( with-out regard to wind direction )

 A double tap sweep could be written ,,,, STARTING ON EITHER END ...

Or if you want two shots on each target, allow the shooter to decide how he wants to do that ... ( to avoid confusion the shooter can tell the TO how they plan to do it, and he can inform the Spotters...)  

A ten shot string with my 38-40 burns 340 grains of powder and if i'm using my .45s I burn 377 grains of powder for ten shots this makes a sizeable cloud of smoke,

 I really don't need the stage writer to add to the difficulty in getting it done...

So let's pick on the Gunfighters and the Lot, for a change ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

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I do shoot Gunfighter, I don't mind one split pistol stage. Start making me shoot outside my category too many times and I start thinking about how much fuel cost and is the trip worth the aggravation.

To see how a lot of us think about it consider your rifle. It is a ten round string, so are our pistols. So how about splitting the rifle? Shoot 5 rounds, leave hammer down on expended round or leave leave leaver open, move about 6 feet and shoot the next 5 rounds. Or shoot 5, lay it down, hammer down on expended round or leaver open, shoot a pistol, shoot 5 more out of the rifle, shoot next pistol.

 

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I have only been shooting for eighteen years and used to shoot only two state or annual matches a year before I retired. I shoot C&B so I have never had an issue with split pistols at any match. I never worried about the percentage of shooters in my category when I was considering shooting a particular match. If a split pistol stage would upset you then not attending sounds like a correct decision for you. When my category shoots large matches black powder is computed into our decision to attend because that is part of the category. All the gunfighters I shoot with don’t seem to have any issues with split pistol stages, I admit I have not shot a split pistol match in over twelve years. I have always found something I liked at all the matches I attended and I think that is true of a high percentage of us. Yes the game, or sport, has changed but it still is a great way to get outside and enjoying some great people doing what we all enjoy. Just my opinion from Colorful Colorado DC

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On 10/1/2022 at 8:44 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

As a Gunfighter...

I love shoot 5, move, shoot 5.

I think it is a lot of fun.

 

As a Gunfighter...

I am ok with shoot 5, stage pistols, do something else, pickup pistols, shoot 5.

As long as a safe and suitable area is available for the staging and pickup.

 

As a Gunfighter...

I detest stages that do not allow me to shoot gunfighter (forcing Double Duelist) because of lack of staging opportunity or requiring a change of location between pistols with something else in hand precluding handgun carry.

 

At a major match - IF stage design/ stage writing forces Double Duelist upon me (especially if it happens more than once), I will simply find somewhere else to shoot the next year.

 

There are innumerable ways to write AND SET fun, enjoyable stages that entail variety and fun AND do so without forcing shooters out of their CHOSEN shooting style. 

THIS!!! I concur 100%  Hugs, Scarlett

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I am really tired of people expecting stage writers to cater to their category.  A stage is a stage is a stage.  Some will benefit some shooting types and disadvantage others.  In the big scheme of it, it will all even out. 

 

And I am especially tired of Gunfighters complaining about stages not being gunfighter friendly.  The whole point of shooting Gunfighter is to make it a little more challenging.  So don't challenge yourself and then turn around and complain about that challenge you made for yourself.   What this mentality amounts to is Political Correctness in our game and in my opinion, our game has no place for politics.  I go to matches to get away from all that crap.  Don't bring it in to our game.

 

A good Gunfighter should be able to shoot any stage.  I doubt Lefty ever complains about stages being non-gunfighter friendly...

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13 minutes ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

I am really tired of people expecting stage writers to cater to their category.  A stage is a stage is a stage.  Some will benefit some shooting types and disadvantage others.  In the big scheme of it, it will all even out. 

 

And I am especially tired of Gunfighters complaining about stages not being gunfighter friendly.  The whole point of shooting Gunfighter is to make it a little more challenging.  So don't challenge yourself and then turn around and complain about that challenge you made for yourself.   What this mentality amounts to is Political Correctness in our game and in my opinion, our game has no place for politics.  I go to matches to get away from all that crap.  Don't bring it in to our game.

 

A good Gunfighter should be able to shoot any stage.  I doubt Lefty ever complains about stages being non-gunfighter friendly...

 

Howdy OTJ.     It was GREAT to meet you and all the other Cracker Crew this past weekend.

 

It is sad when a GF runs a stage, garners some misses, and then complains about the stage not being 'suitable' for them.

 

Its been years since I've shot a stage that I thought went against the gunfighter style of shooting.  It was a stage

that REQUIRED 5 pistol rounds....... move and shoot the next 5.  Except, the club refused to allow the GF to move with

revolvers out of the holsters.    I thought that was kinda quirky on their part.

 

Split pistol stages shouldn't be any more challenging to the GF as it would be for other style shooters.

I have actually seen a few traditional style shooters and Duelist grab their 2nd revolver..... and its empty.  :o

 

Hope we cross paths again soon.

 

..........Widder

 

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