Jump to content

WTC – Schrodinger’s cat situation


Colonel Kraken
 Share

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Thought to ponder... we've changed the rule for hammer not fully down on a rifle (pull hammer all the way back and pull trigger, fires; penalty, does not fire; no penalty). I have always had an issue with an EMPTY being on the carrier or in action and being a penalty (GASP!!!). What if we changed it to "brass (or hull) in the action: found to be a fired casing; no call. loaded round; penalty applies? We leave fired casings in pistols and that is not a safety hazard... Just a thought and don't stone me, please. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Well, atleast I'd be able to gain speed by not having to shuck those last 2 hulls.:ph34r:

Edited by Tennessee williams
Added a highly entertaining emoji
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I been looking for the quote, and can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong but I could've sworn I remember something along the lines of "a spent round in the receiver OF A GUN FROM WHICH IT WAS ORIGINALLY LOADED". The Holler portion of this sentence would keep a piece of rifle brass falling into the port of a 97 from being a call, but in my opinion would also make it not matter if a piece of brass bounced off the wall and into the TO and back into the receiver. It'd still be a MSV. 

My personal opinion is don't change the call. It would make calling the MSV too objective. A good example is the first few replies on here and talk of not knowing how it got there or if it was touching the carrier etc.

 

PWB, am I miss remembering my remembrance or did I forget that I never knew in the first place.

 

See previously quoted rule:

Quote

Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

SHB p.22

 

also:

Quote

A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation.

SHB p.27

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Submitted for serious consideration -

 

when the gun is picked up and a case is found to be laying on the table, that is NO proof that the case was in the gun at the time the gun was restaged. 

we are implying that a empty on the table but covered by the action must have actually been in the action during restaging.

 

 

Couple of points.

And these are both immaterial to whether the rule is valid or needs adjusting.

 

There is absolute proof that the case was in the action of the rifle - two physical objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. 

IF the rifle is laying flat upon the table AND the case is UNDER the rifle - the only possible option is the case is within the rifle.

 

In the absence of a witness seeing the casing exit the firearm AND then witnessing the firearm being placed perfectly upon the exited casing - the assignment of a penalty being appropriate must be made upon the higher probability of occurrence

(is it more likely the casing was left/ remained in the action or more likely they perfectly placed their open action over an ejected casing?).

Meaning that currently - if the firearm is discovered to have been left in a specified condition and not corrected - the only choice is assign the penalty.

 

We can discuss the need for rules changes all we wish - but we cannot throw out penalties tied to current rules just because there is an insignificant "possibility" this other thing might have happened.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

You're not wrong.

I'm not convinced. 

It's a small step for an empty case in the action of a lever gun to find its way into the chamber.  Once there it can, and we've all seen this, prevent the next round from chambering.  Now you have a live round stuck in the action, ahead of the bolt, and a chance for an out of battery discharge.

 

Remember, this rule doesn't only apply to the last round in the gun.  A gun can be overloaded, or not all rounds fired, or a stage could require a rifle reload.

Edited by Fretless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would someone, or anyone, who is still alive, please post an incident, in the history of the world, when an EMPTY cartridge case or shotgun hull killed or injured someone when left in ANY firearm?  This is a rule that needs to go away.  And there is NO lawyer in the world who has ever brought a civil or criminal case against any person or entity that did not have such a rule in any shooting competition.  For years the club in Casa Grande, AZ had a no call rule about an empty shell or hull in a firearm at there annual match.  But, they eventually caved in to SASS or lose their accreditation.

Would love to know how many people were penalized in the history of SASS for picking up a dropped round. 

Probably like all the Catholics who ate meat on Friday and went to Hell, and then the Catholic church changed the rule.  Did all those people eventually go to Heaven?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

 

Probably like all the Catholics who ate meat on Friday and went to Hell, and then the Catholic church changed the rule.  Did all those people eventually go to Heaven?

Nope. They didn't go to Hell for eating meat on Fridays during lent before 1966 in USA. Onliest ones went to hell for eating meat on Fridays was those what did it after 1966 because prior to that it was a no call. :ph34r:

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

This is a rule that needs to go away. 

I think there are a number of folks that agree with you.

But until it does - it is the rule that we work with and needs to be applied based on that rule - not anyones supposition about what has or has not ever happened in the history of the world.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

we've changed the rule for hammer not fully down on a rifle (pull hammer all the way back and pull trigger, fires; penalty, does not fire; no penalty). I have always had an issue with an EMPTY being on the carrier or in action and being a penalty (GASP!!!). What if we changed it to "brass (or hull) in the action: found to be a fired casing; no call. loaded round; penalty applies?

 

7 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Would someone, or anyone, who is still alive, please post an incident, in the history of the world, when an EMPTY cartridge case or shotgun hull killed or injured someone when left in ANY firearm?  This is a rule that needs to go away.

 

I am (almost) sure no spent case left in any firearm ever harmed anyone. But neither did sweeping someone with an empty firearm nor dropping an empty firearm etc. Do you want to get rid of those rules, too?

 

Gun rules are generally designed in a way that at least two rules have to be violated that it actually can get dangerous. For example, a dropped loaded revolver isn't dangerous per se because if you didn't break any second rule there is no live round under the hammer.

But nevertheless, breaking already one rule is always unacceptable and therefore has to be penalized with a MSV, SDQ or MDQ. You always want to stay rather two steps than one step away from an accident, because one misstep can always happen to everyone.

 

I don't really like the new rule of handling someone coming with a cocked rifle from the LT because I consider that unsafe gunhandling. But at least, it can be handled unhurriedly before the timer beeps. When the timer is running, making decisions by the TO is a whole other story. So, to interfere when something is in the action or the chamber of a firearm that left the shooter's hands seems the right thing to me: Not Empty = Call. Until you examine that Schrödinger's Cat, you don't know for sure if it's live or death/spent, so treat it as live.

 

Just my opinion, Equanimous Phil

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this dead cat is still getting beat on. It’s dead, the call is MSV.

 

Schrodinger was an over credentialed idiot. The cat was either dead or alive, not in some twilight zone until someone opened the box.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My suggestion was to assess the casing/hull AFTER the timer is stopped, not while it is going. If you are all finished and picking up your guns to head to the ULT and a casing/hull is determined to be in the action of a long gun, THEN determine whether it is empty (no call) or a loaded round (penalty applies). NEVER would put something like that on a TO while the clock is running.

And the OP call, I guess you have to call an MSV, even though I don't like it. You cannot determine whether the round was LEFT in the gun or was ejected and wound up back in the gun somehow. My view.

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Schrodinger was an over credentialed idiot.

 

Pay no attention to the Nobel Prize he won.

 

:huh:

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

 

Pay no attention to the Nobel Prize he won.

 

:huh:

 

Obama got one too.  So?

 

Edited to add that Paul Krugman also got one, and he's been wrong on every major economic issue for about 30 years now.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Obama got one too.  So?

 

Edited to add that Paul Krugman also got one, and he's been wrong on every major economic issue for about 30 years now.

 

Obama and Krugman got Nobel Prizes in physics?  I was unaware of their contributions to science or that they were known to the Nobel Committee for Physics, let alone the Swedish Academy of Sciences.  They join such lofty personages as Marconi, Planck, and of course Einstein.  Wow!

 

Forgive me, I shouldn't argue with someone who knows so much more than the Norwegian Nobel Committee.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

On 9/21/2022 at 5:26 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In that (extremely RARE instance considering the rifle in the OP is a side-ejecting Marlin) it would be a NO CALL...IMO.

 

PWB,

 

Given this statement in the original post.

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:02 PM, Colonel Kraken said:

The gun was placed down, lever open, on it’s right side. When the shooter was done a member or two from the posse said that there was a spent round on the carrier.

 

Doesn't this observation eliminate the possibility that the rifle just happened to land perfectly on a previously ejected case.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Fretless said:

I'm not convinced. 

It's a small step for an empty case in the action of a lever gun to find its way into the chamber.  Once there it can, and we've all seen this, prevent the next round from chambering.  Now you have a live round stuck in the action, ahead of the bolt, and a chance for an out of battery discharge.

 

Remember, this rule doesn't only apply to the last round in the gun.  A gun can be overloaded, or not all rounds fired, or a stage could require a rifle reload.

Do we penalize a shooter for having an expended or live round in the chamber (failure to eject) that causes the gun to stop feeding? No, they declare a broke gun and continue the stage. If there is an expended case in the gun AND a live round in the magazine because of an overloaded gun, MSV for the live round in a discarded long gun or does the shooter get 2 MSV? No again. We ARE talking about the last round fired failing to eject and the shooter effectively discarding an empty gun (no live ammo). In this WTC, it isn't even known if there was a failure to eject since the empty case was laying on the table under the gun. I agree with the no call. The case could have been in the gun or on the table when the gun was discarded, benefit of doubt to the shooter. Since when to we penalize a shooter for what "probably" happened? Ever hear a spotter say "well he probably missed"

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jackalope said:

 

Obama and Krugman got Nobel Prizes in physics?  I was unaware of their contributions to science or that they were known to the Nobel Committee for Physics, let alone the Swedish Academy of Sciences.  They join such lofty personages as Marconi, Planck, and of course Einstein.  Wow!

 

Forgive me, I shouldn't argue with someone who knows so much more than the Norwegian Nobel Committee.

I'm not sure that knowing more than the Norwegian Nobel Committee is a noteworthy accomplishment, but setting that aside.

 

I would hope that you and I would not be arguing about anything.

 

It seems my comments lately aren't your cup of tea and that's regrettable.

 

I hope you and Anita are well.  Take care.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

PWB,

 

Doesn't this observation eliminate the possibility that the rifle just happened to land perfectly on a previously ejected case.

 

I was replying specifically to the bolded circumstances presented in a "What if?" situation related to the OP.
 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/21/2022 at 10:52 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Question as to how an empty case from a Marlin ended up on the shooter's hat?

Shooting gangsta style!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/21/2022 at 1:41 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Couple of points.

And these are both immaterial to whether the rule is valid or needs adjusting.

 

There is absolute proof that the case was in the action of the rifle - two physical objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. 

IF the rifle is laying flat upon the table AND the case is UNDER the rifle - the only possible option is the case is within the rifle.

 

In the absence of a witness seeing the casing exit the firearm AND then witnessing the firearm being placed perfectly upon the exited casing - the assignment of a penalty being appropriate must be made upon the higher probability of occurrence

(is it more likely the casing was left/ remained in the action or more likely they perfectly placed their open action over an ejected casing?).

Meaning that currently - if the firearm is discovered to have been left in a specified condition and not corrected - the only choice is assign the penalty.

 

We can discuss the need for rules changes all we wish - but we cannot throw out penalties tied to current rules just because there is an insignificant "possibility" this other thing might have happened.

I disagree. "higher probability of occurrence" I call  this a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess). So would you call a SDQ when it is reported a shooter ejected a live round at the unloading table because it is highly probable that round was in the chamber when the gun left the shooters hands? No, you would have to "know" that it was by visual inspection and since that can't be done, it is a MSV. Same situation here, we don't know how the case got where it is, no call. The possibility that there is another explanation for the situation is NOT insignificant!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I disagree. "higher probability of occurrence" I call  this a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess). So would you call a SDQ when it is reported a shooter ejected a live round at the unloading table because it is highly probable that round was in the chamber when the gun left the shooters hands? No, you would have to "know" that it was by visual inspection and since that can't be done, it is a MSV. Same situation here, we don't know how the case got where it is, no call. The possibility that there is another explanation for the situation is NOT insignificant!

I’m not sure we need to know how the case got there. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

We ARE talking about the last round fired failing to eject and the shooter effectively discarding an empty gun (no live ammo)

I was talking about the danger this situation can create, and therefore why it's a rule.  You're inferring that a discarded rifle will never have another round fired through it, while at the same time explaining how the jammed rifle I described wouldn't be a penalty.  Well, that's true.  The shooter can declare a broke gun.  The shooter could also be injured as a result of that jam.....a jam that wouldn't have happened if the "minor" safety hazard of the empty shell had been ejected.

 

That's all I'm saying.  The minor safety is, as Equanimous Phil pointed out, two steps away from the actual danger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/20/2022 at 3:02 PM, Colonel Kraken said:

At an annual match last weekend we had a shooter who was using a Marlin rifle. At the end of the rifle string he levered the gun and laid it down on the table. The gun was placed down, lever open, on it’s right side. When the shooter was done a member or two from the posse said that there was a spent round on the carrier. 

 

 

Ranger Dan,

You make, in my opinion, a good point IF this were a penalty based certain occurrences..   But, based on the OP's thread,

there appears to be a 'certainty'  that 1 or 2 folks noticed the ".....spent round on the carrier".

In this case, when the spent case was discovered in the position described by the OP, there doesn't appear to be

any doubt of what the penalty should be.   Therefore, benefit of the doubt can't be considered for the shooter because

there was no doubt.

 

Other situations can vary to cause folks to reconsider a penalty.   But based on the present rules and the situation stated

by the OP,  the MSV is warranted.   Benefit of doubt can't be considered for the shooter because there was no doubt.

 

Have a good day.

 

..........Widder

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/21/2022 at 5:26 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In that (extremely RARE instance considering the rifle in the OP is a side-ejecting Marlin) it would be a NO CALL...IMO.

CBB: With no evidence to say this did not happen, no matter how rare, it is a possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/20/2022 at 2:02 PM, Colonel Kraken said:

At an annual match last weekend we had a shooter who was using a Marlin rifle. At the end of the rifle string he levered the gun and laid it down on the table. The gun was placed down, lever open, on it’s right side. When the shooter was done a member or two from the posse said that there was a spent round on the carrier. On our posse we had a very experienced TO and a TO instructor. They converged on the rifle to assess the situation. The gun was lying flat on the table. You could not see under it to see if the spent case was on the carrier or just in the gap. Anyone would assume that the round was in the open space left by the carrier being retracted, but you couldn’t observe the round on/touching the carrier. When the rifle was gently raised up the round was left on the table. After a minute or two of discussion it was decided that it was a no call. No one could observe the round was on the carrier therefore the benefit of the doubt went to the shooter. I felt that was the right call since a penalty shouldn’t be assessed if the TO can’t be sure that a violation of the rules has taken place. Like the hypothetical Schrodinger’s cat, who was neither dead or alive until observed, the spent round was both on the carrier and not on the carrier until someone lifted up the rifle to check.

 

Widder: Apparently the TO and a TO instructor "decided that it was a no call"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

CBB: With no evidence to say this did not happen, no matter how rare, it is a possibility.

So your contention is that if there is ANY possibility that occurance (other than expected) could result in the same outcome - no matter how miniscule or improbable the odds of it being one versus the other  - benefit of the doubt should be employed and we ignore the infraction?  

 

So when my round doesn't impact on the target - I can assert that there was a hard shelled beetle upon the target and my round struck said beetle and then ricocheted to the side impacting the ground.

This accounts for both the lack of mark on the target AND the dirt flying up off to the side of the target.

And while my explanation is incredibly improbable - it is possible and by your standard; I shot clean.

47 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Widder: Apparently the TO and a TO instructor "decided that it was a no call"

They were both wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of facts as well as opinions on this post. I'm glad PWB uses blue ink in his computer so someone looking back in 2 or 3 years can find the answer. That being said:

  FACT: It's a MSV for the empty to be IN THE RECEIVER of the long gun it was loaded in after you fire your next firearm or discard it at the ult. IT DOES NOT have to be touching the carrier. 

  MY OPINION and up for debate or ROC clarification or whatever:

  It should not matter how the empty got there. In the pocket RO card, the word "left" is not present. It says:

 

Screenshot_20220922-175321_Drive.thumb.jpg.ddf95bf05c46fa0bbcb16f587b00f9fc.jpg

 

To me, this means that piece of brass can bounce off a TO and 2 spotters and land back in the receiver and it would still be a MSV if it's still there when you fire the next firearm. There is no other way to take it. That's exactly what is written in the RO card, which is what we carry around in our gun carts to help us make the correct call. It doesn't say a round "left" in the long gun. It says "a round in the long gun".

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the subject instance, I was told the rifle was retrieved from its restaged position by a range official other than the shooter—and there was no evidence that the shooter had “left” the empty on the carrier (such as TO or spotters saying they did not see brass ejected on last shot).  Benefit of the doubt to shooter—my call was a No Call.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cassalong Hopidy said:

In the subject instance, I was told the rifle was retrieved from its restaged position by a range official other than the shooter—and there was no evidence that the shooter had “left” the empty on the carrier (such as TO or spotters saying they did not see brass ejected on last shot).  Benefit of the doubt to shooter—my call was a No Call.

I myself ain't getting into how that would change my call if one of my(as TO) spotters picked the rifle up or how there would be a discussion about letting the shooter move it because that would make these waters even more muddy than they are now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cassalong Hopidy said:

In the subject instance, I was told the rifle was retrieved from its restaged position by a range official other than the shooter—and there was no evidence that the shooter had “left” the empty on the carrier (such as TO or spotters saying they did not see brass ejected on last shot).  Benefit of the doubt to shooter—my call was a No Call.

This being the case, I think you made the correct call. 
 

these “oddball” happenings are tough. I think given the TO us there, knows all the particulars, he makes the best call he can, with the reminder that benefit of doubt goes to shooter. As it looks like from what I’m reading, another person touched/moved the gun before shooter did. That being the case, no call was correct call. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spotters actually watching and seeing the fired cases being ejected from a rifle?  Are you kidding me!  Your lucky if the spotters see misses and hits and procedurals!  If I had a dollar for everytime I saw a spotter make a wrong call, I would have a nice retirement fund.

And my favorite spotters are those, who when sitting on a chair/stool at the far right or far left of the stage, while the shooter shoots the stage from 3 different positions, or threw doors or windows, and two of the spotters, who are standing up and moving with the shooter to get a clean view, and they call 3 misses, and chair spotter calls CLEAN!  Every TO should get rid of chair/stool spotters. They don't like it, then they can get off their butts and do their job.

BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT GOES TO THE SHOOTER!!!!  NO CALL!!!!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.