New Cowboy with Winchester 1873 questions.

[Vail Vigilante]

Howdy!

So I have gotten interested in all of the "action" shooting sports. Sporting Clays, most of the "alphabet soup" handgun runs, 3 gun, 2 gun, and of course Precision Rifle.  I am lucky enough to live in Tucson, where all these are decently supported by area clubs. And I am lucky enough to have most of the guns needed for all of this in the safe already.

So Cowboy Action was an outgrowth of that.  I am going to my first match next Saturday in Tombstone. 

 

For a rifle, I have a original 1873. It belonged to my Grandfather that I never got to meet. It is in 38-40. It runs but not as well as it could. I have taken it out and fired it with "Cowboy" loads.  I would like to take it apart, put modern linkages in it, with a new lifter and maybe a new spring or 2. But there is a problem.  The side plates are held on with  a dome head rivet. I hope that this can be re-done with screws.  I sure hope I can continue to run Grandpa's rifle. Maybe one of you can tell me what to do or point me in the right direction to somebody who can. 

 

I have a Stevens 311, it was my first shotgun at the age of 14. in 20 ga.  It is an extractor, side by side twin trigger.

I have two imported 1873 revolvers. One is a Great Western, the other a Cabelas, that could be the twin of the first. Both 45 Colt. I have matching holsters.

For the 20 ga I have a bunch of factory ammo. I reload for the 45 Colt already, and I can reload for the 38-40 with just a new die set.

 

Very excited, can't wait to meet my fellow Cowboys!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You need to post a photo so folks can figure out what you are talking about.  The side plates ARE NOT held on by a dome head rivet.  Modern linkages won't fit without work if at all.  If they are rivited someone has screwed with the gun in a bad way.

[McCandless]

40 minutes ago, Vail Vigilante said:

For a rifle, I have a original 1873. It belonged to my Grandfather that I never got to meet. It is in 38-40.

 

Welcome Vail Vigilante!

I run a Winchester Model 1873 in .38 WCF that was manufactured in 1880.   Although I do recommend shooting these iron-framed guns with black-powder, I have run a few lightly loaded "smokeless" rounds through it.  But, like I said, I don't recommend it.  When I'm shooting a match, I do it with BP cartridges.

I had a gunsmith go completely through the gun.  I have new springs to replace the originals, (save the old ones for if you ever sell it).  All the gunk from over a century of life was cleaned out.  New links were be specially made.  (save the old ones!)  And, modern sights to make it easier to use in competition were added, (save the originals!).  The timing and headspace needed to be adjusted.  The work was done by Nate Kiowa Jones at Steve's Gunz in TX.   A little later action was smoothed somewhat and some minor work done by Three Cut in NC.

 

Since you're in AZ, you have some great gunsmiths there who can help you.   

Arizona - Jim Bowie, Cowboys and Indian Store, Mojave Valley, AZ (714) 210-2720

Arizona - Tom Squibber, Old Western Gun Repair, LLC, Maricopa, AZ, oldwestrepair97@gmail.com - Email is the preferred method of contact.

Arizona - (by Appointment Only), Johnny Meadows, James Peoble johnnymeadows55@yahoo.com

Arizona - Ol' #4"s Tuning & Repair, Tucson, AZ, olnumber4@gmail.com, (503) 890-7440 Colt/Colt Clones (C&B, Cartridge); 1873’s; BSS Shotguns (by appointment only)· 

 

and shortly...

Shotgun Boogie, Uwe Bartch, Shotgun Boogie Gun Works!     

 

 

 

 

 

[Vail Vigilante]

 

So these are the pics of Grandpas old Winchester. At first I thought this was a rivet but now I think it is a panhead screw that is so worn the slot is gone.the loading gate side looks right. This side has been a head-scratcher. I do think I will need help backing out the screw, if I need to. I do much of my own gun-work, its a shame the new kits wont fit, but in those days a lot of the parts were made to be fitted by hand so I get that.

Is a new hammer spring possible? Perhaps a lighter one? What I am finding is it runs much better if I cock the hammer, then cycle the lever. Very smooth running that way. 

[Eyesa Horg]

Welcome Vail Vigilante to best game and folks goin'. Hang on for the addiction!

 

 

 

[Vail Vigilante]

Hey thanks!

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yep looks like so home smithing.  Hopefully the threads are not screwed up.  On the loading gate side the small screw is for the loading gate and the larger one is the other end of the dome shaped screw.  The original main springs are usually pretty stout so yes it will be easier to lever when the hammer is cocked.  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Good News and Not so good.  There are parts available for the old Winchesters.  Unfortunately, my source passed several years back and I haven't kept up with who has what.  Side plates can be sourced as can Main Springs, Links and Lever Side Springs.  All will be at a premium. Depending on when it was manufactured, it may well be an "Iron Frame" gun and as such should NOT be run with smokeless powder.  The pressure spikes are vastly different from Black Powder.  Have fun putting it back into service.

 

A new Main Spring and the Side Springs will NOT be lighter.  They will need to be tuned by a competent smith.  Hang on to your original springs.  If that "rivet" is in fact a rounded over screw, it may be able to be removed.  It may also need to be drilled out.  If it is indeed a rivet, it will also need to be drilled out and you may need to source replacement Side Plates.  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

What I would do is put the gun in a mill or a good quality drill press and drill the round head and remove the head.  Then both side plates can be removed and the stub will probably twist out when you can get access to it.  Depending how good you are with tools and how high the round head is sticking above the receiver you could try cutting a new slot in the round head and see if you can unscrew it.  If not, then drilling is probably the only other option.

[Vail Vigilante]

Well this is good to know. I will run it as-is while I save for something else! At some point you cross a line between maintaining old and getting a clone. 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Does it work as is?   Are you satisfied with it's functionality?   If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

 

 

[Vail Vigilante]

Yes, I will run this rifle for now.

Just learning about lever rifles.

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Can you determine from the serial number what year it was manufacturered? That could affect if smokeless or black powder use.

[Nickel City Dude]

From looking at the pictures you posted, It looks to me that what you have is a pin and not a screw.  It might be possible to drive the pin out from the side that the pin is flush.  Might be worth a try but don't get to carried away if the pin does not move with just a little coaxing. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

No, no, no, don't try driving it out.

[Nickel City Dude]

7 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

No, no, no, don't try driving it out.

Larsen, It does not look like a screw so it is logical to assume that it is a pin.  A light tap with a punch to see if it starts to move is a logical next step.  If it does not move with a light tap then it could be rusted in.  If it is a screw then using a dremel tool to cut a grove in the head so a straight slot screw driver could be used to turn it might also work.  I see no reason to try to preserve the pin/screw as it is not original to the gun.

[Eyesa Horg]

It does appear to possibly be a pin. Almost looks like they center punched the gate side to keep it in. Hard to tell, slot of marks on both sides. FWIW

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Because if the threads are still in the sideplate trying to drive the screw out could ruin the threads.  I would not do that.  I would remove the screw head before whacking on the screw or whatever it is.   But do whatever floats your boat.  A pin would do a very poor job of retaining side plates.

[G W Wade]

Have to agree with Larsen,  Don't mess with the right side until you know what in in there.,   GW

[Nickel City Dude]

53 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Because if the threads are still in the sideplate trying to drive the screw out could ruin the threads.  I would not do that.  I would remove the screw head before whacking on the screw or whatever it is.   But do whatever floats your boat.  A pin would do a very poor job of retaining side plates.

If the threads were still in the side plate and if this is a pin then the threads are probably already messed up.  If it is a screw then it should have a head on it that will accept some type of tool to turn it.  But I do agree with you that a pin would do a pore job of holding on the side plates.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The only reason to keep is if the gun is working properly, removing it might somehow damage the gun.  It is clearly not original.  I'd be very hesitant to mess with it.  If anything, I'd let a gunsmith work on it, but I'd not do anything myself.   

And like I said, if it's working properly as is, no reason to tinker with it. 

 

[Nickel City Dude]

4 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

The only reason to keep is if the gun is working properly, removing it might somehow damage the gun.  It is clearly not original.  I'd be very hesitant to mess with it.  If anything, I'd let a gunsmith work on it, but I'd not do anything myself.   

And like I said, if it's working properly as is, no reason to tinker with it. 

 

What you are saying is true to a point.  If he decides to shoot Black powder in it then it will be necessary to remove the side plates often to clean it.  He was also interested in replacing a few parts so this would also require removing the side plates.  It might be better to have a gunsmith that is familiar with 1873's try to repair the side plate damage.  But if the OP is a DIY kind of person then he might be able to put some new threads on the side plate and install a new screw (with a slightly larger diameter).  If it were my gun I would try to fix it myself because I like this kind of a challenge and I feel I have the necessary knowledge and tools to do the job,  but the course of action on this gun is up to the OP to decide.                 

["Big Boston"]

There are some key lube points inside, it would be nice to get the side plates off to see and add some lube. The suggestion to slot the round head and see if it turns out seems the safest bet to me. It's already been wailed on from the marks, no need to make it worse. I'd spray some Ballistol into the works at strategic spots. 

 

That larger smooth rounded head is a mystery.  Appears to have been welded to. 

 

My opinion, a good candidate for a Turnbull restoration. 

 

I'm curious as to the year. How's the bore?

 

BB

[Cypress Sun]

Welcome to the game.

 

The only advice I can give you on the '73 is...if it were my grandfather's gun and an heirloom to me, I wouldn't be pounding on it...I'd be taking it to a competent gunsmith. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Larsen is correct.  Don't try to drive out what is probably a screw through the grip of the threads.

 

1) try slotting the head and backing out the screw.  Use a good penetrating lube on the right side threads first-- soak overnight.  Heat the right side if needed with a propane torch, but only slightly to expandcthe plate away, loosening the threads.  

 

2) If the above doesn't get you in,  center punch and drill or mill off the domed head to separate the plates.  With the head milled off flush, it should drive out from the LEFT side. 

The right plate will come off when the screw is driven from the left, so don't grip it in a vise.  Give the sideplate somewhere to go when it separates.  Otherwise you will bend the plate and damage the screw threads.  

Remember in milling that the shaft is smaller diameter than the head.  Don't mill too deeply and ruin the side plate. 

 

If you have access to a TIG, TIG weld a small bolt to the domed head and carefully back it out with a wrench. 

 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Many of the smiths around do not work on originals so beware.  I run an original 38WCF born in 1892.  I found new links and springs years ago but haven't seen links in a while.  The springs all needed lightened but now it runs smoothly.   Larsen has given you the best advice to get those plates off.  You can use CLP to spray lube into the guts to keep things lubed.

 

Have a great time with your grandpa's rifle.

[Tom Bullweed]

5 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Welcome Vail Vigilante!

I run a Winchester Model 1873 in .38 WCF that was manufactured in 1880.   Although I do recommend shooting these iron-framed guns with black-powder, I have run a few lightly loaded "smokeless" rounds through it.  But, like I said, I don't recommend it.  When I'm shooting a match, I do it with BP cartridges.

I had a gunsmith go completely through the gun.  I have new springs to replace the originals, (save the old ones for if you ever sell it).  All the gunk from over a century of life was cleaned out.  New links were be specially made.  (save the old ones!)  And, modern sights to make it easier to use in competition were added, (save the originals!).  The timing and headspace needed to be adjusted.  The work was done by Nate Kiowa Jones at Steve's Gunz in TX.   A little later action was smoothed somewhat and some minor work done by Three Cut in NC.

 

Since you're in AZ, you have some great gunsmiths there who can help you.   

Arizona - Jim Bowie, Cowboys and Indian Store, Mojave Valley, AZ (714) 210-2720

Arizona - Tom Squibber, Old Western Gun Repair, LLC, Maricopa, AZ, oldwestrepair97@gmail.com - Email is the preferred method of contact.

Arizona - (by Appointment Only), Johnny Meadows, James Peoble johnnymeadows55@yahoo.com

Arizona - Ol' #4"s Tuning & Repair, Tucson, AZ, olnumber4@gmail.com, (503) 890-7440 Colt/Colt Clones (C&B, Cartridge); 1873’s; BSS Shotguns (by appointment only)· 

 

and shortly...

Shotgun Boogie, Uwe Bartch, Shotgun Boogie Gun Works!     

 

 

 

 

 

+1 for bp or bp-subs in the .38 WCF original 1873.  I have had three and chose not to shot smokeless, even Trailboss, in them.

I will shoot very mild in my original .32 WCF 1873 since it has more steel around the chamber.

I have only owned second and third series 1873s.  The mix of iron and tougher steel parts varies with the series.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

See Lonnie at Run-N-Iron Gunworks.   He does lots of work on old Winchesters.   My guess is that is a rivet that was set into the side plates, and there will be significant fouling and rust internally since the action was not accessible.

 

http://www.runniron.com/index_cowboy.html

 

You have a pretty nice condition gun, just one that has been shade-tree or kitchen-table hacked.  Don't get too carried away with DIY just because you have worked on modern guns a lot.   Easy to ruin both sentimental AND collector's value on it.  And an original Winchester will be hard to find some parts.  Go easy.

 

New hammer spring?   A good smith can hourglass or thin that original spring, or can even make a new one.

 

good luck, GJ

 

[Kid Rich]

#4 will probably be at Tombstone on the weekend.

kR

[Ranger Dan]

18 hours ago, Vail Vigilante said:

Well this is good to know. I will run it as-is while I save for something else! At some point you cross a line between maintaining old and getting a clone. 

 

Several years ago, I was in your position. Inherited an original 73 from an uncle. Was going to start CAS with it. Broke the firing pin b4 even shooting my 1st match. Was not an easy part to find. Decided to buy a reproduction and keep the original as is, just wasn't worth beating up a family heirloom. Being a garage gunsmith like you, I have done my own short stroke, lighter springs, and polishing to make a really nice competition rifle, it ain't that hard. Welcome and good luck, have fun.

[El Catorce]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:09 PM, Vail Vigilante said:

 

So these are the pics of Grandpas old Winchester. At first I thought this was a rivet but now I think it is a panhead screw that is so worn the slot is gone.the loading gate side looks right. This side has been a head-scratcher. I do think I will need help backing out the screw, if I need to. I do much of my own gun-work, its a shame the new kits wont fit, but in those days a lot of the parts were made to be fitted by hand so I get that.

Is a new hammer spring possible? Perhaps a lighter one? What I am finding is it runs much better if I cock the hammer, then cycle the lever. Very smooth running that way. 

I would not run a rifle with as much sentimental value as this one may hold. I would definitely shoot it at matches but not “race” it. once you're bit by the game  and feel like upgrading it, I’d advise getting a modern replica rifle and trick it out. Id leave grandpa’s rifle stock as he shot it  and maybe bring it out a match now and then to let it bark a little.