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Stage Variety in Matches (Rifle starts)


Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I would agree, as long as broad shooter options don't make the spotting/counting confusing to point too many errors occur. 

 

It helps to tell the T.O. and spotters how you intend to proceed.  Then spotters can locate themselves where they can see the targets as you move, and watch the correct plates without surprises. 

 

When the counting has problems, so does the match overall.  

Agreed

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

To me, if everybody has the SAME options, it's fair.

I have made this argument as well; but still stand by the premise that shooters deserve equitable choices - offering choices when there is really only one "smart" way to shoot a stage or sequence just leads to confused shooters or folks winning by better deciphering the stage writing.

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I have to disagree(I think). Are you saying giving a gun order choice has to be equal for everybody any order? If so I disagree. Because like I said, some shooters are faster with say shotgun first. If you write the stage sg first, you've given those shooters a minor advantage. If you give everybody choice, then it's more equal because everyone can shoot it their own way. 

 

I never said equal - I said equitable.  

We are not all equal in skill or ability or preferences.

But IMO our guns are NOT interchangable cogs in a stage - each has certain aspects and variety of challenge AND most stage writers do not understand the trade offs that are required to make them equitable components.

I have taken the time to analyze 100s of shooters; assign percentages of stage time to each gun, each movement, each "cog" in the stage - where I can say "this will take our imaginary shooter this long to accomplish this component" so to balance out shotgun vs pistols vs rifle - we need two more shotgun or a faster pistol sequence or a nine round rifle run (or a 1 round reload) or two more paces between positions A and B and one less pace between B and C.

IF your stage writer IS capable to make each cog equitable then great - most are not.

 

Of course - I might just be the type to over think EVERYTHING.

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16 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I have made this argument as well; but still stand by the premise that shooters deserve equitable choices - offering choices when there is really only one "smart" way to shoot a stage or sequence just leads to confused shooters or folks winning by better deciphering the stage writing.

We still talking about gun order? 

16 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I never said equal - I said equitable.  

While equal essentially means everybody has the same amount or opportunity, equitable means everything is divided up fairly(usually by 3rd party). I'm of the mindset, less is more. Meaning the less I'm told exactly what I have to do, the more fun I have. 

16 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Of course - I might just be the type to over think EVERYTHING

Yes, you are. I am too:lol:!

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I like options. Less is more in stage writing. Don't tell us which end to start on, or where to discard empty guns, Split pistol stages are fine. Stages can be written that use two guns that take the same time to shoot as a 10-10-4 stage, if one can't figure that out stop writing stages now. Movement is paramount, we will not attract younger shooters by standing in one place or just taking a couple steps. That's my daily opinion.

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When you have the ability to write stages that will be on one bay and only used once, you can work out a lot of this stuff. If your monthlies are on three, two or even one bay and you have to rewrite a target setup for two or three stages, your hands are severely tied when it comes to what you can do. For a larger match where you have one stage on each bay, I fully agree with most here. Show some imagination, do some different things. The Georgia State match has been mentioned; great example of how to write stages. Variety AND options. Some like to start with a specific gun and "rifle not last" gives them that option. I wholeheartedly agree that if you are going to give this option, that it should not be a stage where only one order makes sense but you "gave them the option". But keep in mind that some folks may choose a less traveled path because it works better for THEM and they will not want to follow the most likely order.

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14 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I would agree, as long as broad shooter options don't make the spotting/counting confusing to the point where too many errors occur. 

 

It helps to tell the T.O. and spotters how you intend to proceed.  Then spotters can locate themselves where they can see the targets as you move, and watch the correct plates without surprises. 

 

When the counting has problems, so does the match overall.  

I usually tell the TO which way I'm going. 

 

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15 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Phantom is good people regardless of what he wants people to think.:ph34r:

  Not sure if I'm totally following. We have 15 dedicated stages. Lots have down range movement. Of our 5 stages the beginning of the month, 3 had down range movement and a pretty open gun order. There was 1 run of the mill sweep. There was only 1 stage that gave the 3 gun order.

  My thinking is a match where I'm told exactly how to shoot 5 or 6 stages is boring. I want options and I think most others do as well. I'm not saying there's not some folks like to be told.

You don’t have to be told exactly what to do even if there is a designated gun order, for instance you might have to decide if you are going to take the rifle or shotgun with you (personally I like to leave that up to the shooter), the discussion might be a little too far might slow me down , same discussion as if pistol & rifle are together at a location and asking your buddy what he’s going to start with if it’s an option , mostly likely that will depend on hands position table height etc.,which can be a viable option that I don’t have a problem with. Also stage might have optional sequence which can be discussed usually these stages cause the most discussion.
 

*I would like to see the down range movement stages that you mention with options typically those are pretty locked in as far as gun order. Those are the ones I mention about taking rifle or shotgun with you kinda thing options to discuss. 

 

Here is the thing I see on the option stages that I’m talking about is  a stage with side to side movement and having rifle on the left pistols center and SG on the right, any gun order rifle not last. This is going to be shot by 99% percent of shooters rifle first. So it’s really a rifle first stage (Not really an option stage)unless your left handed which most are not. ********But if the stage writer wanted it to be a true option they would put SG on the left and you might start a couple paces back. This would make it a true option but typically they don’t. So excluding my last sentence you go to next stage same sort of thing. 


Unless it’s a stand & deliver (don’t like those) or there is movement to first gun, usually there is going to be best way to start.

 

I will go to a match(s) and there will not be one mandatory shotgun start and no stage is set up to where it makes it even tempting to be a competitive option. I think starting with shotgun belongs in our sport/game on 2-3 stages in a 10 stage match and belongs in monthly matches too, we shoot 6 stages at all the monthlies I attend even in summer.

 

Many times having starting gun options takes the variety out of the match. Most of the time they are no brainers that are not truly options for competition side of things. 

 

AO

 

I will be at SE Regional be glad to meet ya

 

Again I love down range movement would like to see some stages with gun order options. Here we do them quite frequently but your working your way down range to each Shooting position so gun order is set as to target array etc. 

 

 

 


 

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29 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

You don’t have to be told exactly what to do even if there is a designated gun order, for instance you might have to decide if you are going to take the rifle or shotgun with you (personally I like to leave that up to the shooter), the discussion might be a little too far might slow me down , same discussion as if pistol & rifle are together at a location and asking your buddy what he’s going to start with if it’s an option , mostly likely that will depend on hands position table height etc.,which can be a viable option that I don’t have a problem with. Also stage might have optional sequence which can be discussed usually these stages cause the most discussion.
 

But being told the exact gun order does dictate most of what you do. You HAVE to start here, then you HAVE to go there, then you HAVE to go there kind of thing. 

29 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

*I would like to see the down range movement stages that you mention with options typically those are pretty locked in as far as gun order. Those are the ones I mention about taking rifle or shotgun with you kinda thing options to discuss. 

One that jumps to mind is:

2 tables set back. Rifle targets in the center of those 2 tables down range. 2sg targets on each side of those rifle targets. One table down range in front of those targets that become pistol targets.

Gun order is pistols last. Sg staged on either up range table. Rifle staged on opposite up range table. 

Sg engage kds in any order

Rifle do the sweep or roundcount

2 pistols shot from down range table. Rifle and sg shot from staged location.

With these options neither a righty or a lefty is favored. If you want to start with sg, you can. If you want to start with rifle, you can. There are lots of other scenarios to give options on gun order.

29 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

Here is the thing I see on the option stages that I’m talking about is  a stage with side to side movement and having rifle on the left pistols center and SG on the right, any gun order rifle not last. This is going to be shot by 99% percent of shooters rifle first. So it’s really a rifle first stage (Not really an option stage)unless your left handed which most are not. ********But if the stage writer wanted it to be a true option they would put SG on the left and you might start a couple paces back. This would make it a true option but typically they don’t. So excluding my last sentence you go to next stage same sort of thing. 

Some folks are left handed though. I like for them to be able to run the stage same as a right hander. I do agree on your post above. Seems like there could be some more imagination or creativity used.

  On those three positions you mentioned, how about rifle and pistol from center table, 2 sg targets in front of the 2 outside tables. Gun order is rifle not last and allow sg to be split if so desired. Lots of ways to run that stage! Shooter could shoot right or left table sg first then move to other end and shoot sg then center table for rifle and pistols. Shooter could start at right or left table with sg then move to center table for rifle/pistol or pistol/rifle then move to last sg table. Shooter could start at center table and shoot rifle/pistol or pistol/rifle and then the 2 outside tables for sg. See what I mean about options. That makes for a good stage to ME. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:


Unless it’s a stand & deliver (don’t like those) or there is movement to first gun, usually there is going to be best way to start.

I agree there will be a best way to start, but the best way for you may not be the best way for someone else.

29 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

Many times having starting gun options takes the variety out of the match. Most of the time they are no brainers that are not truly options for competition side of things. 

 

AO

But they don't have to be no brainers with a little forethought.

 

Nice post, good discussion. I like it! Yall come on back up to Wartrace

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8 hours ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

Here is the thing I see on the option stages that I’m talking about is  a stage with side to side movement and having rifle on the left pistols center and SG on the right, any gun order rifle not last. This is going to be shot by 99% percent of shooters rifle first. So it’s really a rifle first stage (Not really an option stage)unless your left handed which most are not. ********But if the stage writer wanted it to be a true option they would put SG on the left and you might start a couple paces back. This would make it a true option but typically they don’t. So excluding my last sentence you go to next stage same sort of thing. 

We usually have some 3 position stages with lateral movement with the rifle in the center. One may have shotgun left, pistols right and another may be the opposite, start at any table rifle not last. On these I prefer to move left to right so I’ll start with whichever gun is on the left.  Sometimes we’ll start rifle first end with whichever gun you want. On these I’ll go left after the rifle no mater which gun is there because on the next and longest move I prefer left to right.
 

Like Tennessee said on the stages with down range movement, many times we have a choice of starting with rifle or shotgun and end with pistols.  

 

On our target arrays,  target 1 is always whichever end you start on.  I have been to a few matches where targets were always numbered left to right and sweeps were always written left to right, I’m definitely not a fan of that..

 

 I like having choices of how I want to shoot a stage and how it works best for my brain (sometimes it’s not the best way for others)

 

Randy

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Usually on the down range stages we do three or more positions, so you might start with rifle pick up Shotgun work down range, then shoot pistols

 

or another stage might start with SG work down range to rifle then finish pistols

 

Another stage you might start with pistols move down to rifle and then finish with shotgun

 

Three very different down range stages all starting with different guns. 

 

If your going to shoot two guns from the same position, sure why not let it be shooters choice, but seems most stages will have 3 positions. At monthlies I like a choice stage so I can start with a different gun then the previous stage.

 


*******

Im not sure why people keep mentioning sweep direction I thinks it’s dumb to dictate that, most folks like to go left to right or start left to right why penalize folks who like to do it right to left. 

 

 

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We can't leave our targets out between matches, nor do we have permanent facades. Therefore, we change things around every month. I've noticed clubs that have the ability to leave targets in bays typically change target layout little between monthly matches because it's too easy to write the scenario around the existing target placement. Same with facades, large facades and shade/rain covers also lead to redundant scenarios.

 

If you're hosting an annual match and only have 10 stages, not that I'd be missed anyway, I'm not coming to your match. If you have even one stand and deliver stage I'm not coming. If you only have lateral movement I'm not coming.

If you think moving two steps is movement it isn't. Nothing bores me more than watching videos of Cowboy Shooting without Action. Just my opinions. I'm no longer MD at Hell On Wheels, my filter is broken. 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Assassin said:

We can't leave our targets out between matches, nor do we have permanent facades. Therefore, we change things around every month. I've noticed clubs that have the ability to leave targets in bays typically change target layout little between monthly matches because it's too easy to write the scenario around the existing target placement. Same with facades, large facades and shade/rain covers also lead to redundant scenarios.

 

If you're hosting an annual match and only have 10 stages, not that I'd be missed anyway, I'm not coming to your match. If you have even one stand and deliver stage I'm not coming. If you only have lateral movement I'm not coming.

If you think moving two steps is movement it isn't. Nothing bores me more than watching videos of Cowboy Shooting without Action. Just my opinions. I'm no longer MD at Hell On Wheels, my filter is broken. 

 

 

 


yep not a fan of stand & delivers at all  in fact I like at least three movements or that’s my favorite, Cowboy Action is the name of the game.

 

Check out “The OTJ” videos on you tube , OTJ video’s most monthly matches Roughshod Raiders , Fort White Calvary, Lake County Pistoleros  lots of movement & variety. Lots of top shooters as well but he videos the whole posse so you will see different levels of shooters in his videos. 
 

AO

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Assassin said:

We can't leave our targets out between matches, nor do we have permanent facades. Therefore, we change things around every month. I've noticed clubs that have the ability to leave targets in bays typically change target layout little between monthly matches because it's too easy to write the scenario around the existing target placement. Same with facades, large facades and shade/rain covers also lead to redundant scenarios.

 

If you're hosting an annual match and only have 10 stages, not that I'd be missed anyway, I'm not coming to your match. If you have even one stand and deliver stage I'm not coming. If you only have lateral movement I'm not coming.

If you think moving two steps is movement it isn't. Nothing bores me more than watching videos of Cowboy Shooting without Action. Just my opinions. I'm no longer MD at Hell On Wheels, my filter is broken. 

 

 

 

Assassin, just remember. some folks don't have the options to do as you prefer but can still put on good matches. We have not had the option to have two-day matches in the past and have had some really fun 8-stage matches. No, I would not expect you to travel from Wy to GA for 8 stages, but if we can get back to putting on annuals and you are anywhere near, we'd love to have ya.

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Some advice I have been given over the years from top shooters about choices when give gun order.

 

Shoot the shotgun last. You don't have to shuck shells on the clock.

Shoot the shotgun first so that if you bobble the loading you can get a restart.

Shoot pistols last because you don't have to reholster on the clock

Shoot pistols first as you have time to reholster while moving between shooting positions.

Shoot pistols first because you can be picking up the next gun as you are reholstering.

Shoot rifle first because you can be drawing your pistol or picking up your shotgun while laying it down.

 

 

All of the above advice is both correct and incorrect. Which one(s) you choose to follow depend a lot on shooting style, kind of shotgun you shoot, stage layout and most importantly what is that person good at.

 

The past couple years I have attended a few state level matches that had a lot of shooters' choice on gun order and in some cases where guns were placed. I found that these stages have made me a much better shooter overall as I now think about the different ways to shoot that stage.

 

For the longest time I only shot at monthly matches where the majority of stages told the shooter gun order and in what direction to move. This didn't cause me to really think about the stage nor did it prepare me for shooting at ranges where things were different. My first state level match I struggled with target placements that I was not familiar with and sweeps I had never seen. I had never really had to THINK about how to shoot a stage as the thinking had been done for me. 

Shooting stages that are shooters choice has caused me to have to think.  Now I consider which transitions are the most economical for my shooting style. Do I move left to right or right to left? Which gun do I start with? What are the pros and cons of a gun given order? When the pistol or shotgun targets are split which is the best way to accomplish the scenario? I no longer struggle with new sweeps as I am now used to THINKING about the stage and not letting others think for me.

 

It is also interesting to observe how different shooters will approach those stages. With a well written stage there is seldom only one best way to shoot it. Especially those that have both L to R and R to L movement and split pistols  and or shotgun. 

I have noticed that the better shooters will approach transitions differently depending on if they shoot with both their strong and weak hands than those that only shoot with their strong hand. 

I shoot Double Duelist and use an 87 shotgun. I always pick up my shotgun with my left left hand and load with my right as I for me that is the most consistent trouble free  way for me to transition to my shotgun. So how I approach a stage is often different than someone who only shoots with their strong hand or shoots a SXS vice an 87 or 97

 

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31 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

He was pretty eloquent weren't he.

 

Me thinks he's slept at the Holiday Inn Express............ OR, been on a previous posse with TN Williams and Widder.  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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