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Cut down '97 barrel question


Hawg Runner, SASS #61139

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A '97?   Most get cut to 20".  Any cutting removes the choke.   Don't need barrel length to "aim".   So, anything longer than 20" is just going to get in the way of window frames, etc.  What did Norinco and IAC get told to do making clones?  20"

 

good luck, GJ

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Use the 30" barrel!   That's what I use for Wild Bunch and as my primary Main Match gun as well.  You'll get a lot of fun smiles and comments, and you'll never miss.

Once you cut a barrel on an original Winchester, you can never go back.  Find one that's already cut, or buy a reproduction.  Heck, you can probably sell the long barrel for more than the cost of an already chopped one to someone who likes long barrels.

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Use the 30" barrel!   That's what I use for Wild Bunch and as my primary Main Match gun as well.  You'll get a lot of fun smiles and comments, and you'll never miss.

Once you cut a barrel on an original Winchester, you can never go back.  Find one that's already cut, or buy a reproduction.  Heck, you can probably sell the long barrel for more than the cost of an already chopped one to someone who likes long barrels.

 

Value of a long barrel depends a lot on condition. Unless it is in better than average, or very good, I would not hesitate to shorten it. 20" is what Winchester made the barrels on their riot '97s. I have shortened a few shotgun barrels and there is a point where patterns start to open up rather quickly. If you need a bit better pattern, try 22". Especially handy with 7/8 oz loads. I have a clone with screw in chokes, I use a skeet choke in it. 

 

A bit of back boring on a 20" does the same thing. I wrap the barrel where you want to cut it with a layer or two of masking tape and use a plumbers tubing cutter. This leaves a lip on the inside that has to be removed, but other than using a parting blade in a lathe, it is the squarest cut you can get. I drill and tap a new hole for the bead before cutting the barrel. A length of fishing line from the old bead to the center of the action ensures the bead is where it should be. I use a drill press and a vise for drilling and taping for the bead. 

 

Search the topic, it's been covered many times. 

 

BB

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HARRUMPFF!!!  Not to be contrary (YES I AM), BUT . . a "tubing cutter" is the absolute WORST way to cut a shotgun barrel.  It is quite easy to get a square cut when property marking the cut and using a 32 tooth hacksaw turned to cut on the "pull" stroke.

 

A tubing cutter does more damage than just a "lip" on the inside.

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The "relative worth" of a 97, aside perhaps from a trap model in pristine condition, on average is not going to be very much.   Cutting a barrel is not really gonna hurt the value much, if at all for an average condition shooter.   That's a given that I have long understood.

But to me, the very act of cutting the barrel is just "wrong," somehow.  You are, in a way, destroying a piece of history, a historical artifact, if you will.   And once it's gone, it's gone forever and can never be recreated.   So many long barreled 97's have been cut that they are getting harder and harder to find.  It's starting to happen to Model 12's now too now that they are Wild Bunch legal.   I think that's just a shame.  There's something nice about shooting a vintage gun the way it was made.    The way it was modified, unless perhaps it is a historical modification, just doesn't have the same panache as original condition.   Think of it as like sporterizing military rifles.  Once upon a time, it was considered the best thing to do.  Now it's seen as something that was a horrible thing to have done.   The day will come with the same will be said about cutting a 97, 87, 12, or other other historical shotgun.   Might be a LONG time before we get there, but the day will come.

And, I really dispute the idea that the shotgun barrel has to be short to be useful in our games.  My original SASS shotgun was 20" 97.  It's marked full choke on the barrel, so it has been cut.  It's also stamped "WPD" on the stock.  I like to jokingly say it stands for "Winchester Police Department" but who knows?   But this very well may be an example of a historical cut by a police department somewhere.  Yes, you might have to be more careful with some stage layouts, but a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to matter.

Anyway, I wanted to have a long barreled 97, just to have one.  Finally found one and bought it.   Just for kicks, I decided to try a match with it.   Among other things, I discovered that I hardly ever, almost never, miss with the long full choke barrel, and I acquire the targets more quickly that with a short barrel gun, which I would often have to reengage shotgun targets with.   But maybe that's just me.   I will say that the longer barrel always seems to work better for me.  Be it a 97. or a 19" Parker vs a 30" one, or an 87.   Plus, like I mentioned before, you're gonna get a lot of fun commentary for using such an unusual configuration to our game gun.

 

Ultimately, it's your gun, so you can do what you want, but really consider the alternatives.   And before you make the final choice to cut, try it uncut at least once.   You just might like it.

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Well while I appreciate all, I did cut the barrel down today along with a shorter butt stock, yes I used a large tubing cutter which did a darn better job than a hacksaw I once used, plus my drill press for the front bead. I plan on using it on my main stages also,( cut to 21 inches ), I just got done with over 2 months of cancer treatment 5 days a week, so I lost a lot of muscle mass and trying to make it easy on me, also have a temp trach tube in me due to the radiation closed my throat up where I still can not eat ( feed tube in ) and just now where I can drink water thru a straw. Hence cutting the barrel was a way to handle it better, but again, thanks all and see ya on the range. :) 

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I have a 97 with a 30" barrel that had screw chokes installed when I got it.  Because of the screw chokes, I've never cut it back, but in reality I shot a double barrel most of the time and really didn't need it for cowboy.  However, I have cut down quite a few doubles and I like them cut to 24".  I've never had any problems with a 24" barrel around windows, or with movement on a stage, etc. and the extra couple inches helps to keep the action open, gives me a bit better site plane and possibly even a bit more velocity with my light shotshells.  All in all, it boils down to personal preference and what you get used to using, but 20" just seems a bit short for me and you can always cut it again if it's still too long to suit you, but that doesn't work the other way around!

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Yes I agree, but hindsight was not thought of and kinda wish it did. Been sitting around the house by myself since Mid June after the hospital stay putting the feed tube and temp trach tube being put in and am bored to heck. I plan on going to my match this month after being given the ok to use a shotgun by the doctor.  I use shoot black powder 45 colt, 44-40, and shotgun, but to back into the swing of things am going 38, 357, smokeless (GAG, I know).

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17 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

HARRUMPFF!!!  Not to be contrary (YES I AM), BUT . . a "tubing cutter" is the absolute WORST way to cut a shotgun barrel.  It is quite easy to get a square cut when property marking the cut and using a 32 tooth hacksaw turned to cut on the "pull" stroke.

 

A tubing cutter does more damage than just a "lip" on the inside.

Hello Coffinmaker,

  If you would please elaborate on why you think using a tubing cutter is so bad and what  more damage it does. I have been using one for years along with a large counter sink reamer to take the lip out on many gun and never a complaint. I loaned it to a fellow shooter at summer cowboy gunsmithing school, instructor thought it was great. When done the bore is cylinder 

 R'N'R Rob

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Unless you're talking an "upgrade" model like pigeon, trap, etc or a 99% pristine example, it's prolly not going to affect the value much these days. Besides, it's your gun, do what you want.

 

Now me, I've shot competitively since I was a teen. Trap & such with shotguns and I like long barrels because I get a bit better aim and busting ability. They also swing and balance better for me because I'm a big-N-tall guy. Choke is relative. Depends on the ranges you're shooting at and what. With the right tooling, it's easy to backbore a cut barrel to put whatever choke you want in it. Some shoot pretty dang good without a choke and others shoot like a Remington 870 barrel with buckshot....nothing bit air in the middle by about 15 yards LOL. (pattern looks like a doughnut)

 

Back when I was learning, I spent summers and off-season time trading scut work in a buddy's shop for learnin. One of those was shotgun work. Took me no time to collect several 97's and such for "practiceen" on. One was a 30" 97 that was 20 percent finish but no rust, solid and tight with a stock someone had used square cobbler nails on to attach a leather buttpad THEN put a slipon rubber pan on top of. Yeech. Paid 150 for it so it was my first gun to choke figuring that would be the most likely one to screw up. (I'd already done the stock, cut it too short to get past all those cracks) I figgered that thirty would let me do it over at least four times before I got to 18" LOL.

 

Well crap. That first one came out perfect. Tommy had an extra long kickeez pad in the junk box and that fitted up real nice. Best part was when mounted the bolt doesn't hit my nose by 1/4" LOL. Heck ,off to a match I went and know what? I left it that way! Shoots good at the trap range even!

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22 hours ago, Rough 'N Ready Rob said:

Hello Coffinmaker,

  If you would please elaborate on why you think using a tubing cutter is so bad and what  more damage it does. I have been using one for years along with a large counter sink reamer to take the lip out on many guns and never a complaint. I loaned it to a fellow shooter at summer cowboy gunsmithing school, instructor thought it was great. When done the bore is cylinder. 

 R'N'R Rob

 

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Rob

 

All too often, the "kitchen table" mechanic runs the pipe cutter too aggressively and not only puts a "lip" on the muzzle but also crushes the last eighth inch or more, into a quasi "choke."  Whether done with a power cutter, hacksaw or "whatever" the result, if done with care will be cylinder bore.  Then the muzzle is trued up with a muzzle facing cutter with pilot.

 

Incidentally, I have never heard of an "official" Cowboy Gunsmith School.  Accredited Gunsmith Schools teach the whole gamut of the trade.

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17 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Rob

 

All too often, the "kitchen table" mechanic runs the pipe cutter too aggressively and not only puts a "lip" on the muzzle but also crushes the last eighth inch or more, into a quasi "choke."  Whether done with a power cutter, hacksaw or "whatever" the result, if done with care will be cylinder bore.  Then the muzzle is trued up with a muzzle facing cutter with pilot.

 

Incidentally, I have never heard of an "official" Cowboy Gunsmith School.  Accredited Gunsmith Schools teach the whole gamut of the trade.

Coffinmaker,

  I'm talking a tubing cutter, one used for copper water lines and steel brake and gas lines in auto work, not a pipe cutter for heavy wall pipe. Keep the cutting wheel  changed and sharp, they will work fine and won't walk on you.

  The classes I'm talking about were given at Lassen Community College in Susanville, California. It is one of the full- time gunsmithing schools in the nation for people that want to make a career out of it. The classes given in summer were one week classes, 10hr days each week covering one of the guns we use in cowboy action shooting. The first year, I took rifle and shotgun.  It was great being in a class with like-minded people liking guns. Our instructor was Bob Chavez & what a fun guy;  kept the class interesting. I went back the next year along with my new found shooting buddy, Salt Pork Steve, whom I met there and did a refresher in shotgun-rifle and the pistol classes with me staying on campus in my little trailer and Steve staying in the dorm.  We would hang out a supper time.

  The classes were given by the college in cooperation with the NRA & we were given a certificate of completion when the course was completed.  I would recommend it to anyone in cowboy shooting.

    Rob

 

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If you want to cut the barrel, then go ahead. The gun will more than likely be worth more as a cowboy gun than it ever was in original condition. Original pristine guns especially trap guns have good value and should be kept original in my thinking. The rest would be a dime a dozen if it weren’t for cowboy action. When I started this game you could get a 97 in great condition for $250-$300. Now an original piece of junk is $400-$600. Heck even the reproductions have jumped from $275 up to $650+. 

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Rob,

 

Ah so.  Simply amazing what can be found in some Community Colleges.  A most excellent offering for you.  Well done.  

 

Was some annoying for me, to have to turn a mandrel specifically to take that "choke" out of the end of more '97s that I care to remember.

 

I also get annoyed with those shotgunistas who get their knickers in a twist over cutting a '97 barrel and ruining it's "collector" value.  There isn't any real collector value.  Winchester made around a million and a half of them and at least half that amount are still sitting in a back closet somewhere.  Agreeing with Doc Roy l., when this game started we could find nice '97s at most gunshows for 75 to 100 bucks.  CAS drove the prices where they are.

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39 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

For the record, I know there is little to no "collector value" to most 97's.  I oppose barrel cutting more on the basis of...

 

1.  I do not think it is neccessary

2. The "historical artifact" aspect.

But it's all a moot point here, he already cut it.  :)

 

 

Yes he did.

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On 9/10/2022 at 3:41 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Use the 30" barrel!   That's what I use for Wild Bunch and as my primary Main Match gun as well.  You'll get a lot of fun smiles and comments, and you'll never miss.

Once you cut a barrel on an original Winchester, you can never go back.  Find one that's already cut, or buy a reproduction.  Heck, you can probably sell the long barrel for more than the cost of an already chopped one to someone who likes long barrels.

Or find another 30” barrel and magazine assembly for your takedown. Don’t know how to put it on, but I hit it if I ever want to. 

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"Historical Artifact"   Really??  Historical Artifact becomes Oxymoron when there are a Million and a Half of 'em out there.

 

You are allowed to "think it's not necessary."  Since it's his gun, he gets to do with it to please himself with the result.

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In my experience, cutting the long barrel to 20" (or less -- I cut mine to 18.5") INCREASES the value of the gun by $200-$300 because you can advertise it as a "riot style" and "home defense" shotgun if you want to sell it.  And forget about the "historical value" of a Winchester 1897/97 -- it is a tool.  On EVERY given day there are 20-30 listed on Proxibid in every conceivable condition.  The supply is endless, at least in our lifetimes.

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3 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

This ^^^^^^

I have 10 97's all cut to 18.5" 

I welded the extra cut off pieces to gather and made 2+ barrels. 

 

 Hells Comin 

 

Agree with HC.   I also prefer 18.5".

 

..........Widder

 

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both of mine in great working but well worn condition had 30" barrels - one was a full and the other cylinder , i cut the cylinder to 22" and have never regretted it , the other i traded to a friend that wanted one for a double i wanted , not sure if he cut it or not , i would agree with its yours to do as you please but i also agree that these were not high value items [ i had less than $150 in each of them] no finish and well worn wood but fully functioning - both around 1911 dated  versions 

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36 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

What would be the advantages of having a barrel longer than 18.5" for Cowboy action shooting?

20 years ago or so at a Tin Star Ranch match in Texas, a group of Arizona pards showed up, Col. Scratch and his buddies, in their cavalry uniforms and seems like they all had 30" '97's.  They said where they came from the targets were "out there."  Of course, that was then.

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