Hammer shotgun options

[Johnny Knight]

Hi all,

Wanted to get some input on the current choices for a hammered shotgun.  Fairly new shooter, started last year, shooting duelist with smokeless powder.  Looking to work towards classic cowboy, so setting up some vaqueros in 44-40 for use with blackpowder.  The question I have is looking at the current options for readily available hammered shotguns, it seems to be the CZ hammered coach or the various Pietta/Taylor 1878 options.  Looking on Gunbroker, I've also been seeing some older Rossi's come up for sale.  Are there other guns that would be better choices?  Pro's and con's of the above choices?  Looking back at the threads, it seems folks are fond of the TTN's, but I'm not seeing them come up for sale.

Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

 

Regards,

Johnny

[Trailboss (Santa) Dave]

I have a couple of the Rossi guns (12 & 20 ga) and like them

 

The wife really likes her 20ga

 

I also have a CZ and like it, but it is not my go to gun due to the hammer springs being heavy and hard to cock

 

Bot that can be fixed, I just have not done that yet

 

 

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Rossi is a choice.

Things to know.

 

Rossis are still made in south America.

How ever, they have not been imported to the USA since the late 1980s.

 

There are three models of Overlands. (The short barrel guns)

 

First has a Greener lock system. There is an exposed round bolt rod that will stick out on the left side when open. Depending on how you learn to load, this bolt could become your worst night mare. IT is shaped to the recoil shield and very sharp. This can cause a very bad cut to your hand. Because of the pass through bolt there is a divider between the barrels that sticks out a 1/2" or more. making dropping 2 rounds in the barrel rather interesting.

 

Second model removed the Greener lock and removed the bolt for cam lock. The divider between the barrels is still large and makes reloading harder than it needs

to be.

 

Third model is same as the second but the divider between the barrels has been made small and only sticks out about 3/8". Reloading is much easier on this model.

 

Something to check on each model.

Can you cock the right hammer with the gun open. Some if not most models have the hammer places in such a way that when the barrels are open the level hits the right hammer if cocks. Some have the hammer in such a way that you can cock the hammer when the barrels are open. The hammer placement can be changed with a little work. This is so the leveler does not have to be bent. If you plan to always pull the hammers back after loading and closes, this is not an issue. But if you plan on placing the gun on the start prop with the hammers precocked it is important to make sure the lever does not interfere.

 

I have several Rossi shotguns. 410ga, 20ga and 12 ga. Stick with the 12ga. It is easier to load on the clock. Easier to barrow rounds should you run short or forget yours. More choices for commercial rounds. The 410ga is the most expensive gun. Less than 600 imported.

 

I had a TTN 12ga and find it heavy. But I have shot Rossis  since the 1980 before I got in to SASS 1992. It also has a smaller stock wrist.

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Unfortunately, pickings are slim.  Unless you're willing to lay out some serious folding money.  Cimarron was offering a nice Hammer Double made in Pakistan.  Haven't seen any of late.  Next up in price point is the CZ, also a very nice shotgun.  Climbing up the ladder is the recently released Pietta Hammer Double, a very very nice shotgun.  Top of the heap is owned by Pedersoli.  A very very very nice and very expensive shotgun.  Understand, all of these offerings have Main Springs from a Dump Truck that will require some TLC to be really user friendly.  They all are however, very finely made Hammer Doubles.

 

Unfortunately, the best Value for Dollar in Hammer Doubles, The TTN/Cimarron, haven't been coming into the country.  The exact reason other than tensions with China is unknown.  The only other option is to watch for Antiques.  And with Antiques, one must be VERY cautious of Damascus barrels.  Hold out for Fluid Steel barrels

[Kansas City Munny]

If you can find a Tula TOZ66, they're great guns. They're built like tanks and you will have to lighten the hammer springs, but they're light, swing easily, and mine shoots exceptionally tight patterns. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Have you tried an 87?  They are legal for CC and with a little practice They are just as fast as a double gun. 

 

If you go that route get one that Lassiter has worked his magic on.

 

I have 4 and love them.

[Major Art Tillery]

Long Hunter Supply for a tuned CZ

https://www.longhunt.com/web/index.php?page=CZ-Hammered-Coachgun-Cowboy-Action

 

I used a CZ and liked them personally.. My style of cocking the hammers seemed to work with them being a little stiffer.

 

 

Rock Island Armory has recently introduced a hammered SxS at a $550 - $600 price point.  Never handled one but sure worth looking at!

 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Have you tried an 87?  They are legal for CC and with a little practice They are just as fast as a double gun. 

 

If you go that route get one that Lassiter has worked his magic on.

 

I have 4 and love them.

 

Never could get a SXS to work for me.  Old dog and new tricks.    Love the 87 and they can be set up to run with a bunch of different options.

[Sedalia Dave]

23 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

 

Never could get a SXS to work for me.  Old dog and new tricks.    Love the 87 and they can be set up to run with a bunch of different options.

 

same here,
 I’m as fast or faster with my 87 than I am with a SXS. 

[Sixgun Seamus]

Try several from other cowboys if you can to see what you like. The wife shoots an 87 very well but there is a long learning curve. Takes a lot of practice. I shoot a TTN. (I have 2) Some of the top Classic Cowboys shoot TTN's. My advice is be patient and hold out for a TTN. Hammers are pretty beefy and closer together and I feel easier to cock. 

[Will Kane]

I'd sure be interested in checking out a Rock Island Armory. As best as I can tell from the online photos I've seen, the hammers appear to be close together like those of a TTN. I haven't been able to find any online information on vendors with any in stock, though.

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks for the info everyone, I've gotten a friend started and he's looking to shoot classic also, so killing two birds with one stone.  Regarding the different Rossi's, the first one you described is what is referred to as the cross bolt safety?

On the '87, my understanding is there is quite a wait time for Lassiter to be able to get to it, has that changed?

I'll be at both comin at cha and land run, so hoping to see the different guns there to get a feel for the differences.

Johnny

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Johnny K,

 

I shoot a Rossi 12 and love it (I recontoured and refinished the stock to look more vintage and disabled the auto safety). I have found no problem with the cross bolt on cocking as I cock with the barrels closed. I also have a Liberty II and a a vintage Belgian sxs as backup. They both have very heavy hammer springs that I have not addressed. 

 

I also have an 87. I would not start out with it. The amount of practice to get good with it would pay quicker results on a double. I also have noticed that 87's eject much better with roll crimped shells (like the shot shells available back in the day). 

 

Try as many shotguns as you can before you slap leather on one. I'd still go for a Rossi as your primary or backup.

 

Rev. Chase

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

 

On the '87, my understanding is there is quite a wait time for Lassiter to be able to get to it, has that changed?

I'll be at both comin at cha and land run, so hoping to see the different guns there to get a feel for the differences.

Johnny

 

Buy an 87 direct from Lassiter.  Occasionally used IAC or Norinco 87 show up here on the wire. Deuce Stevens did a video on the different techniques for loading an 87  

[Sedalia Dave]

The SXS offered by RIA is manufactured in Turkey and imported by RIA. 

 

Review here  https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/review-rock-island-armory-side-by-side/?force_isolation=true

 

Found one in stock here https://www.guns.com/firearms/shotguns/side-by-side/rock-island-sxs-12ga-12-ga-break-action-2-rounds-24-barrel-new?p=462886&force_isolation=true

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

First I've heard of the Rock Island offering.  Interesting.  Aluminum Receiver.  Interesting.  Barrels are too long.

[Tyrel Cody]

Slater out in East Tennessee does a great job setting up 87s too; just thought I'd mention it.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

6 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks for the info everyone, I've gotten a friend started and he's looking to shoot classic also, so killing two birds with one stone.  Regarding the different Rossi's, the first one you described is what is referred to as the cross bolt safety?

On the '87, my understanding is there is quite a wait time for Lassiter to be able to get to it, has that changed?

I'll be at both comin at cha and land run, so hoping to see the different guns there to get a feel for the differences.

Johnny

 

I shot the TTN for years, it is now my backup. Had Lassiter do his two drop system and other work on my 87 and that is what I have been shooting the last 5 years or so. Takes lots of practice but is a blast and get a lot of comments about it.

 

Johnny I will be at Landrun so if you look me up you can try them both. I have shot both smokeless and smokie stuff through them both.

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks Cowtown Scout, I'll be sure to track you down at Land Run.  Seems the 87's have a fan base, but I see them rarely at the two clubs I shoot at, being THSS and Thunder River.

Johnny

[Major Art Tillery]

19 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks Cowtown Scout, I'll be sure to track you down at Land Run.  Seems the 87's have a fan base, but I see them rarely at the two clubs I shoot at, being THSS and Thunder River.

Johnny

Cowtown runs one really well!   You will probably see a couple of other fellas Dantankerous and 3 Shot Shamrock that run them as well at Land Run too.

[Chantry]

21 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

The only other option is to watch for Antiques.  And with Antiques, one must be VERY cautious of Damascus barrels.  Hold out for Fluid Steel barrels

 

I have a number of antique hammered shotguns.  From first hand experience, if something breaks, there are no spare parts.  New parts will have to be made and that is very pricey.   

[Warden Callaway]

I have a cabinet full of antique 10 gauge double barrel hammer guns. Have a dresser full of old Steven 12 gauge hammer guns. I've had a Cimaron 1878 (TTN) but sold it.  Have a Liberty the good one made in Turkey.   My hands down favorite is the CZ hammer coachgun. 

 

The Liberty over CZ.

 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

21 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

same here,
 I’m as fast or faster with my 87 than I am with a SXS. 

 Faster on this end also!   What is sort of cool, after a few stages with real BP, after a 6 shot string and SG still on your shoulder, you can look down the barrel and see it glowing on the inside.

[El Catorce]

I saw a baikal hammered sxs on the wire a while back… are those hammers functional? 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

51 minutes ago, El Catorce said:

I saw a baikal hammered sxs on the wire a while back… are those hammers functional? 

Baikal made two types of hammer guns.  One had hammers that cocked internal strikers, the other had conventional hammers that hit firing pins.  Years ago there was lots of discussion about whether the one that cocked internal strikers was legal for CC (I think they said yes).

[Itchy Trigger]

10 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Baikal made two types of hammer guns.  One had hammers that cocked internal strikers, the other had conventional hammers that hit firing pins.  Years ago there was lots of discussion about whether the one that cocked internal strikers was legal for CC (I think they said yes).

i don’t believe they are for classic cowboy and that is why most people use hammered s/s

 

    2022 Rulebook

    “Shotguns: SASS legal external hammer double barrel, single shot, or lever actions. External-hammer double barrel shotguns must have manually functioning hammers. Faux hammers and hammers that are cocked internally are illegal.”

[El Catorce]

45 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

i don’t believe they are for classic cowboy and that is why most people use hammered s/s

 

    2022 Rulebook

    “Shotguns: SASS legal external hammer double barrel, single shot, or lever actions. External-hammer double barrel shotguns must have manually functioning hammers. Faux hammers and hammers that are cocked internally are illegal.”

 

59 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Baikal made two types of hammer guns.  One had hammers that cocked internal strikers, the other had conventional hammers that hit firing pins.  Years ago there was lots of discussion about whether the one that cocked internal strikers was legal for CC (I think they said yes).

So the simple answer to Baikal hammered sxs’s is “yes but it depends”… no wonder people steer clear of them. Im not a classic cowboy and no plans to change to Cc. Just curious by nature. 

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I have been shooting a TTN for several years but the past few seasons have been shooting an 87. Definite learning curve but fun to shoot. But when the train goes off the tracks it can be a wreck and to add to my fun I shoot Frontiersman.

 

 

Hochbauer

[Sedalia Dave]

22 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks Cowtown Scout, I'll be sure to track you down at Land Run.  Seems the 87's have a fan base, but I see them rarely at the two clubs I shoot at, being THSS and Thunder River.

Johnny

 

I am seeing them more and more at the bigger matches I attend. 

[watab kid]

this has been an enlightening thread , ive been thinking about trying to find a hammered double to back up my stevens , good to know i could get a new one as opposed to cutting down another old one , 

[Tommy Reb]

I always liked the Pioneer Arms hammered coach gun.  I still have mine, and occasionally hunt quail with it, although I now shoot an '87 for CAS.  The PA is very well made in Poland.  I see they are still listed on the PAC web site, but I do not think they have actually been manufactured or imported for some time.

[Silver Creek Jack]

I have only moved over to Classic cowboy for a few months after finally getting all the correct shooters for the requirements of  CC, I was able to pick up two TTNs and really like them, they are a bit heavier than other doubles but I like the weight and they point really well for me. I did try out a few other hammer shotguns but settled on TTN. That said a slicked up 87 is pretty cool also! TTNs can be hard to find but they are out there, good luck!

[Dantankerous]

What SCJ said.

 

And to expound, if you find a TTN you'd better be buying it on the spot as it will sell to someone else ASAP if'n you put it down. 

 

I've had one for 10 years, always served me well although I generally use my '87 these days.

[Johnny Knight]

Looking forward to seeing some of guns mentioned at the upcoming matches.  Couple more questions.

 

On the '87's it looks like there have been a couple of reproductions made over the last decade or two.  Are there particular models/

brands to look for, or avoid?  Some years/serial number ranges to look out for?

 

On the mention of the Rock Island, it appears it has ejectors, rather than extractors, so doesn't that disqualify it, or have folks removed the spring?

From the gun description:

The Side by Side Shotgun is the classic modern shotgun that can always be relied on. It has external hammers, double trigger, and auto ejectors that make it always cowboy ready. Aluminum Receiver and Walnut Stock gives all the classical attributes. Chambered for 2 3/4" and 3" shells.

 

Johnny

[El Catorce]

1 hour ago, Johnny Knight said:

Looking forward to seeing some of guns mentioned at the upcoming matches.  Couple more questions.

 

On the '87's it looks like there have been a couple of reproductions made over the last decade or two.  Are there particular models/

brands to look for, or avoid?  Some years/serial number ranges to look out for?

 

On the mention of the Rock Island, it appears it has ejectors, rather than extractors, so doesn't that disqualify it, or have folks removed the spring?

From the gun description:

The Side by Side Shotgun is the classic modern shotgun that can always be relied on. It has external hammers, double trigger, and auto ejectors that make it always cowboy ready. Aluminum Receiver and Walnut Stock gives all the classical attributes. Chambered for 2 3/4" and 3" shells.

 

Johnny

Many, if not most, modern sxs are ejector equipped.  I know thats usually one of the first things a gunsmith will do to get the shotgun match ready. I would contact a cowboy gunsmith to verify if they can get it to extract only.