Scopes for Long Range Matches

[Col Del Rio]

Anyone shoot in the "Optics" category?  I am thinking  of mounting an old fashion scope on a Browning 1885 in 45/70.

What brands/types are recommended? 

 

I know I have many related questions, but I have never had a rifle such as this. It has a full stock / wrist so there is no exposed tang for a traditional sight. I am a bit reluctant about drilling into the wood of the stock and would rather fight a better way to set up this gun for fun.

 

V/R

 

Col. Del Rio

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

MVA

[Clyde Henry #7046]

DZ Arms and MVA make top notch scopes.  I have both scopes on my 1885 Brownings BPCR rifles.  While I Iike both scopes, I like the DZ mounts better than MVA.  The markings on the DZ mounts are easier to see  and the mount is a lot more rugged than MVA.  I have had to send my MVA mounts back in for repairs several times. 

[John E. Law]

13 hours ago, Col Del Rio said:

Anyone shoot in the "Optics" category?  I am thinking  of mounting an old fashion scope on a Browning 1885 in 45/70.

What brands/types are recommended? 

 

I know I have many related questions, but I have never had a rifle such as this. It has a full stock / wrist so there is no exposed tang for a traditional sight. I am a bit reluctant about drilling into the wood of the stock and would rather fight a better way to set up this gun for fun.

 

V/R

 

Col. Del Rio

 

 

IMO If this is for a cowboy action side match rifle then I would not go with the scope. For me the field of view is so small it slows me way down. I would go with a MVA mid range soule and a globe front sight. Find a competent gunsmith who can work the stock and get the sight mounted properly and you'll never know. They are fast target acquisition, accurate, and SUPER cool sights. Also, shooting just CAS side matches I think the 45-70 is overkill. It's more expensive to shoot and beats you up especially if the match allows best time-unlimited tries (which I prefer). The 38-55 is a very accurate, mild recoiling rifle that is perfect for this game. Mine is a laser out to 300 yards and it'll hold its own out to 600 yards. I haven't shot it any farther than that. I also have a Marlin 1893 in 38-55 that's the same way with accuracy. It's one of my favorite rounds to shoot and load.  

 

Now if you're intentions are BPCR and going in that sort of direction then others on here may be able to advise further.

 

JEL   

[Clyde Henry 7046]

The OP said he wants to shoot in an "Optics" category".  So that rules out iron sights.  I have shot 38-55 up thru 45-100s.  While the 38-55 is a sweet round, it doesn't hold up well when the wind blows.  Wind and long range go hand in hand.  Recoil is not going to be a big factor for SASS side matches given the limited number of shots.  As for expenses, hmm, that has to be the most insignificant number ever when compared to all the other costs of get to a match.  Just because a 45-70 is larger than the 38-55, means absolutely nothing when comes to hitting long range targets.  The 45-70 will shoot just as well as the 38-55 at shorter ranges, and a darn site better at the longer ranges.  Keep your options open.  The 45-70 does very nicely at shooting close targets (the ones that are all the way to the back of the pistol pits).  Learn to read the wind and 45-70 does nicely at shooting real long-range targets.  Get a scope and go shoot your 45-70.  It will serve you well.

[John E. Law]

6 hours ago, Clyde Henry 7046 said:

The OP said he wants to shoot in an "Optics" category".  So that rules out iron sights.  I have shot 38-55 up thru 45-100s.  While the 38-55 is a sweet round, it doesn't hold up well when the wind blows.  Wind and long range go hand in hand.  Recoil is not going to be a big factor for SASS side matches given the limited number of shots.  As for expenses, hmm, that has to be the most insignificant number ever when compared to all the other costs of get to a match.  Just because a 45-70 is larger than the 38-55, means absolutely nothing when comes to hitting long range targets.  The 45-70 will shoot just as well as the 38-55 at shorter ranges, and a darn site better at the longer ranges.  Keep your options open.  The 45-70 does very nicely at shooting close targets (the ones that are all the way to the back of the pistol pits).  Learn to read the wind and 45-70 does nicely at shooting real long-range targets.  Get a scope and go shoot your 45-70.  It will serve you well.

I only use my 38-55 for CAS matches only and I play to WIN every time. I don't shoot it for anything else.  

 

He said optics because of the mods to the gun. " I am a bit reluctant about drilling into the wood of the stock" No real mod needed for the Soule just a competent Smith to do the install cleanly.

 

I specifically asked if this was ONLY going to be used in CAS long range side matches. The longest range I've ever seen for a CAS  LR match is 300 yards, the majority 200, some only 100. At this ranges 45-70 is way overkill. 

 

While the wind does play a factor in long range shooting, CAS long range is not really "long range" and the targets are normally large steel plates. It's again more about speed then real accuracy so the fact that the 45-70 is just as accurate at short ranges and a site better at longer ranges in moot for CAS ranges.  Maybe 1 in 50 matches that I've shot CAS long range has wind been ANY kind of an issue and even then it was a minimal factor at best.  

 

Moving on to expense. While I agree it's not shot very often so price is varied depending on how much you shoot 45-70 is significantly more expensive to load per round than 38-55. I do own and load both. The 45-70 is 40% more expensive on everything except the primer. Truly not "insignificant" in today's economy. 

 

Recoil. Have you every shot a CAS match? Especially one that's unlimited tries for your best time? I have. Going head to head with two another shooters at the south east regional match. We bested each other back and forth. The one shooting the 45-70 bowed out first. Why because his shoulder couldn't take the repeated shots any longer. It's a multiple round speed match not a bench rest match.  If you're there to have a fun taking your time just shooting your old rifle  great, but if you're there to compete for a win and shooting rapidly 10-12 shots in a row there's a HUGE difference between the 45-70 and the 38-55.

 

As for the optics. Again it's a CAS SPEED MATCH. Field of view is cut down significantly. A CAS match involves quick transitioning between targets. Again,  if your there for a cool factor then great but if you're there to win take every advantage you can get. 

 

Let me repeat. If you're only looking to shoot ONLY CAS long range, which is specific, and you want to compete for the win then 45-70 is a handicap over the 38-55. If you're using the gun for ANYTHING else in addition to CAS then it may be an viable option.

 

You choose to shoot 45-70, great. It's your choice and opinion. I have mine and offered it to the OP. If the OP chooses the 45-70 that great to, but now he has more information from another shooter surg experience in CAS and dozens of state abs regional wins.

 

Good day

 

JEL

[Chantry]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:06 AM, Col Del Rio said:

Anyone shoot in the "Optics" category?  I am thinking  of mounting an old fashion scope on a Browning 1885 in 45/70.

What brands/types are recommended? 

 

I know I have many related questions, but I have never had a rifle such as this. It has a full stock / wrist so there is no exposed tang for a traditional sight. I am a bit reluctant about drilling into the wood of the stock and would rather fight a better way to set up this gun for fun.

 

V/R

 

Col. Del Rio

 

 

 

Here is an alternative if you decide to stick with iron sights, but don't want to drill into the wood to mount a tang site.  I've bought one and it is a definite improvement over the factory sight on the 1885.

 

Link: https://www.smithenterprise.com/product/pn-8002-xlr-buckhorn-long-range-sight/

[John E. Law]

45 minutes ago, Chantry said:

 

Here is an alternative if you decide to stick with iron sights, but don't want to drill into the wood to mount a tang site.  I've bought one and it is a definite improvement over the factory sight on the 1885.

 

Link: https://www.smithenterprise.com/product/pn-8002-xlr-buckhorn-long-range-sight/

Never knew Smith sold those, but I can tell you their stuff is top notch and well worth their price. 

 

JEL

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Another variant to consider is if the match is off-hand or sitting.

A Shooter's Friend slip on recoil pad works well in BPCR type shooting.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/pq-shooter-s-friend-recoil-pad-rol924.html

[Clyde Henry #7046]

JEL have you read the long range rules, they clearly say that long range IS NOT ABOUT SPEED, its about ACCURACY! 

As for distances for SASS long range targets, while most distances are short (200 to 300 yards).  Out west, where I shoot, (I have won several matches) the distances can be in the 500 to 700 yard range.  And I have been shooting long range for 30+ years with several wins in single shot and lever auction rifles matches. 

 

Also, I am a AAA BPCR silhouette shooter.  For those that may not know, a BPCR silhouette match normally consist of 40 shoots for score and about 20 sighters.  So, that is around 60 rounds down range in a single day.  Or about 6 times the number of rounds shot at typical SASS long range match.   Many top-notch BPCR shooters are women that shoot a 45-70.  While recoil is more that a 38-55, it is not bone crushingly more.  Managing recoil, is just like anything else, it’s a skill that can be learned.  My wife, when she was younger, won several women’s, matches shooting my 45-90.  The right equipment and skill to use that equipment goes a long way to winning a match.  And, I am there to compete and win, that is why I do not handicap myself with a small caliber rifle.  My large caliber rifle will shoot short range and long range with great accuracy.  I tried the 38-55 and it came in a distant second to my 45-70 and 45-90 rifles.

 

Mounting a tang sight directly to the wood butt-stock has to be the worst idea I have ever heard.

 

For those of us that load our own long-range ammo, we know what the costs are.  While the cost in “percent” difference is higher for 45-70 when compared to a 38-55, real dollar cost for the 10 to 15 rounds shot at a long-range match is not much.  In other words, the total dollar out lay for the 45-70 over the 38-55 is extremely small when compared to all the other cost of shooting SASS.  I don’t pay my bills in percents, I pay them in real money.

If all a person ever wants to do is shoot very short range, then shoot a small caliber rifle, 25-35, 30-30 would work well.  But if you want to be considered a true long-range rifleman, learn how to read the wind and shoot a caliber that will consistently hit targets way out there (several hundred yards), the ones where the bullet flight time is long enough that you can move to your spotting scope and watch your bullet hit the target.

The 45-70 is just as accurate as the 38-55 at short range, but the 38-55 is not as accurate at long range.  That little light weight 38-55 bullet gets blown around by the wind and will de-stabilize faster than the heavier 45-70 bullets.

[John E. Law]

It was the OPs words about wood. I know it involves tapping the tang but the OP was worried about the stock. I suggested a smith to "work the stock" where the tang is located so please don't put words into my statement. 

 

The rules may say they're more about precision with time being secondary,  but the targets are not difficult to hit so it ALWAYS comes down to the fastest shooter. I have shot at least 60 long range CAS side matches and they all were based on speed in the end. I've shot all the way out to Oklahoma and Texas and no targets were ever past 300 yards. The couple that were paper target only matches I passed on, why? Boring. If i wanted to shoot precision bullseye I'd go back to shooting F-class or 1000yd matches, got bored and i prefer action shooting. I've been to your state twice taking classes sponsored by my agency just for shooting long range. That's BPCR country no doubt, but THAT'S not gonna be your average CAS side match. The OP is in Hawaii so I assume there aren't many 1000 yard opportunities there so BPCR probably isn't in the cards for him, I don't know I've never been to Hawaii i may be wrong.  

 

So we can go about this all day so we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I said multiple times in my posts that IF the OP was looking into BPCR or anything else other than just CAS side matches then 45-70 may be a great choice. But If the rifle is going to be for CAS ONLY then 38-55 is more than sufficient. It seems to me by your comments that BPCR seriously influences your opinion.

 

JEL

[Col Del Rio]

Guys, I did not want to start a debate. Note, in Hawaii gunsmiths are harder to find than Republicans! I have to do what I can with what I got.

We don't have long range matches here--no long ranges.  

 

We might in the future on private land.

 

I do appreciate all the input though.

 

Mahalo (thanks)