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Trapdoor Bullets


Tequila Shooter

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I’ve got an original 1873 Springfield trapdoor (made in October 1874).  I’m looking for a source for a 500 gr +/- black powder bullets.  I’ve got 300 gr bullets already, but I’m to try a heavier bullet that is closer to the original loads.  Thanks for any leads.  

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I believe the originals were 405 grain. I use the Lee mold specifically made for the Trapdoor. The bullets are 405 grains with a hollow base.

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1 minute ago, C.N. Double said:

I've had good luck with the 405gn bullet from Bear Creek -- they have others that are heavier too.

https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/45-70-405

RATS! Someone beat me to the suggestion of Bear Creek Supply. Great folks. https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/bulletselection

with more than just 405 grain.

If you're shooting APP, the bullets are coated. So minimal fouling. If you're shooting the Holy Black, your grease cookie should help with minimizing fouling. Your call.

Also July Smith is GTG on any deal. (should you decide to cast your own)

 

La Sombra

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I'm using the same bullet as Cholla.  The Lee .405 gr.  in front of 55 gr of BP.  

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41 minutes ago, Texas Red said:

Tequila,

Here's a Great Bullet...Mark is Great Pard to do business with...I use'em in my Marlin 1895 and Browning BPCR..  Smokeless or Black.... 

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Regards

Texas Red

 

+1 on Mark's BigLube bullets

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The heaviest bullet listed for the Trapdoor in the Lyman Reloading Manual #47 is 420 grains. Pat Wolf's book on reloading for the trapdoor lists a 500 grain bullet but most loads are for the 405 grain bullet. Bear in mind the Trapdoor was the rifle that hurt the people at both ends. I can't imagine the 500 grain bullet being easy on a shoulder with as little at the trapdoor weighs when compared to the Sharps 1874.

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The first loads I made were with 500 grain bullets I got from buffalo arms. Mostly because the first thing I did when I got a trapdoor was to buy Pat Wolfs book. I can tell you, they thump the hell out you. Might hurt less being on the receiving end of over an ounce of lead.   I’ve since moved down the power scale to one of the big lube bullets from Mark. 

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Lee 405HB is the way to go. I have only found one company that sells them, Montana Precision. I would steer you away, the casting is very poor. Cast your own, its pretty easy, and then pan lube the bullets. Don't size them. If you haven't already check out Pat Wolfe's the 45-70 book. Everything you wanted to know and more.

 

 

 

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Thanks everyone!  I’m going to try Mark’s first, after reading what’s been said I don’t want a round that’s going to hurt me almost as much as the target. 

 

BTW, the reason I was asking this question is because of an email that I got from Land Run.  Their long range side match is at a distance of 300 meters, which is about 328 yards.  Hell, I don’t know if I can even see a target with iron sights at that distance. :huh: @La Sombra, @Sedalia Dave, @Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428, @Cholla, @Texas Red, @C N Dubble SASS#38003, @The Rainmaker, SASS #11631, @Bailey Creek,5759

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1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Thanks everyone!  I’m going to try Mark’s first, after reading what’s been said I don’t want a round that’s going to hurt me almost as much as the target. 

 

BTW, the reason I was asking this question is because of an email that I got from Land Run.  Their long range side match is at a distance of 300 meters, which is about 328 yards.  Hell, I don’t know if I can even see a target with iron sights at that distance. :huh: @La Sombra, @Sedalia Dave, @Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428, @Cholla, @Texas Red, @C N Dubble SASS#38003, @The Rainmaker, SASS #11631, @Bailey Creek,5759

If it's like the target at Bordertown, it's massive. 300 meters isn't that far for a long-range match so you should easily be able to make it ring with a 405 bullet.

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2 hours ago, Cholla said:

If it's like the target at Bordertown, it's massive. 300 meters isn't that far for a long-range match so you should easily be able to make it ring with a 405 bullet.

 

My luck it’ll be a paper plate :ph34r:

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16 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I read an article from Mike Verturino. 

He said most Original Trapdoors measure 462, 463.

Mite want to slug bore or use a hollow Base Bullet.

Part of the problem with "slugging the bore" of an original Trapdoor Springfield is they have 3 lands and 3 grooves. It can be done, but not as simple as driving a lead slug down the barrel.  The .462-.463" is about right, but you can get good results from 1:20 tin:lead bullets. The 405 gr. bullet was standard until the mid-1880's, when the 500 gr. was introduced for longer range shooting. By that time, there was little need for the heavier bullet for tactical reasons, and the big slug was primarily used for longrange matches.

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Howdy

 

My Trapdoor left the Armory in Springfield MASS in 1883.

 

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I agree with Trailrider. Slugging the bore of an original Trapdoor can be difficult because the rifling was three grooves. Difficult to get an accurate measurement on a slug that has been run through a bore with an odd number of grooves.

 

I ran this slug through the bore of my Trapdoor some time ago. This is a Montana Precision 405 grain bullet that was sized to .458 at the factory. The best I can say is it is measuring somewhere around .460 or so across the diameter of one groove and adding the depth of the groove on the other side. Not a pinpoint accurate way to determine the groove diameter in a bore with three grooves, but that is the best I can do. On the plus side, these bullets perform very well in my Trapdoor.

 

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I bought about a half dozen boxes of these bullets through Buffalo Arms probably about 15 years ago or so. Down to three boxes and a partial right now. Last I checked, Buffalo Arms did not carry this exact same bullet any more, but they have something similar.

 

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I load all my 45-70 ammo on my old Lyman Spartan single stage press. I use the RCBS primer seating tool in the photo to seat my primers.

 

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I don't scrimp on powder. I pour 70 grains of Schuetzen FFg down a drop tube and into my cases.

 

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Just so you know, recoil with 70 grains of powder and a 405 grain bullet is not a killer. Just a nice steady push.

 

 

 

I use a compression die (the thing lying across the top of the box) to compress my powder just enough so that the bottom of the bullet will touch the top of the powder. I do add a thin card wad on top of the powder once it has been compressed. I do not add any grease cookies or any other crutches in my 45-70 ammo, the four grease grooves in the bullets carry enough soft lube to keep the bore of the Trapdoor lubricated without needing any swabbing out.

 

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Not a bad idea to keep a blow tube handy in case you want to keep the fouling in the bore soft with a few long, slow breaths.(Breathing out of course)

 

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One of my 45-70 rounds all the way on the right in this photo. Although not necessary with a single shot rifle, I do put a little bit of crimp on my 45-70 rounds to help keep the bullet in place.

 

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I had not shot my Trapdoor for a few years. Got a chance to shoot it at a match this spring.

 

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As Trailrider stated the original 1873 Trapdoor cartridge for rifles was .45 caliber 405 grain bullet over 70 grains of black powder.  The carbine round was .45 caliber 405 grain bullet over 55 grains of black powder with spacers to make up the space.  At first the case was copper and the primers were internal, at some point they changed to brass from copper and at some point they changed from internal primed to external primed that could be reloaded.

 

In 1882 the 405 grain bullet for rifles was changed to 500 grain bullet and the carbine round stayed at 405.  The first cartridges were not maked for Rifle and Carbine so after removed from the marked box there was no way to tell until you shot it.  Then they started making the bottom of the carbine cases with a C, the next step was the headstamp with that included an R for Rifle and a C for carbine.  Once they changed to 500 grain bullets it was easy to tell Rifle from Carbine rounds.

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In the early 1870's, just after the M1873 Carbines were issued to cavalry companies, several company commanders requested that .45-70-405 rifle ammo be issued instead of the carbine load, presumably to increase the effective range of the carbines. Not sure how this sat with 5' 4", 125 lb. cavalry troopers, but then, again, what the C.O. said went!  And anyway, they were allowed three rounds per man per month for target practice, and in the heat of battle, recoil wouldn't have been much noticed anyway. :rolleyes:

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11 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

My luck it’ll be a paper plate :ph34r:

Please don't ask me to spot for you if that the case.

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