Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger

[Utah Bob #35998]

1 hour ago, Bart Slade said:

What I want to know is - what's the story with the movie?   Did they just shut down production and are now not making it?

 

 

Shut down. Probably permanently.

[Muggle]

10 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

What I want to know is - what's the story with the movie?   Did they just shut down production and are now not making it?

 

 

Don't think the movie is ever coming out.

[Pat Riot]

I won’t watch anything that douchebag, Alec Baldwin, is involved in.  I truly hope this goes to trial and the stress is too much for him and he dies a slow agonizing death one night while praying to his gods Marx and Stalin for mercy. It would save the taxpayers money in the trial. 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I won’t watch anything that douchebag, Alec Baldwin, is involved in.  I truly hope this goes to trial and the stress is too much for him and he dies a slow agonizing death one night while praying to his gods Marx and Stalin for mercy. It would save the taxpayers money in the trial. 

Now come on, how do you really feel?

[Pat Riot]

59 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Now come on, how do you really feel?

I would go further but I don’t want to be implicated should this scumbag go missing…

[Sixgun Sheridan]

15 hours ago, Muggle said:

Don't think the movie is ever coming out.

 

Something tells me it will, after all the fallout is done. Too many morbid car-crash watchers with money in their hands to pass up releasing it.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

In order to release it, they'll have to finish it. Don't think that will happen. 

[Utah Bob #35998]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/alec-baldwin-on-rust-shooting-every-single-person-on-set-knows-who-to-blame-for-halyna-hutchins-death/ar-AA10Je4z?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz

[Rye Miles #13621]

23 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

I have this nagging feeling that we already covered all of this....pages of it

Yea we did when it first happened but this is different due to the findings of the FBI. They said he pulled the trigger!! We didn't know that last time!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Baldwin explained during the new interview that he believes guns can fire without pulling the trigger by using a technique called "fanning." The "30 Rock" actor claimed that if you pull the hammer back far enough while the gun is loaded with a live round, it would fire. He maintained that he did not pull the trigger of the gun that killed Hutchins.

 

REALLY ALEC???

[Sedalia Dave]

What I want to know is who pulled the hammer back. 

[Sawhorse Kid]

It does not matter which one person you want to blame.

In this situation the hair of responsibility can be split in many directions.

There were multiple points of failure in the system on this set.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Sawhorse Kid said:

It does not matter which one person you want to blame.

In this situation the hair of responsibility can be split in many directions.

There were multiple points of failure in the system on this set.

Can the responsibility be split? Not if you mean perhaps 1/2 should go to one person and 1/2 to another. If you mean can more than one individual be separately responsible, then yes it can be split.

 

The entire system on movie sets is inherently a point of failure. The entire system is based on the premise that an actor can not be trusted to handle a firearm safely, so someone else (an armorer) must handle it safely for him.

 

We now have a case where the actor  is also the producer. Had those two roles been separate people, this would have been a civil insurance claim.

 

Had it been you or I, and we had pointed a firearm at someone else, and not been familiar with the firearm, and killed someone... I'm not seeing this as a civil matter, I see reckless disregard. I see criminal negligence.

 

I see that no sane actor would ever hold any firearm they were not thoroughly familiar with and had not personally verified its condition. Not if they knew they would be criminally liable for any unsafe discharge. Personally. Themselves, Any "armorer" or "insurance" or "system" notwithstanding.

 

He knew or should have known better.

[Trailrider #896]

Without regard to who specifically could have contributed to the tragic shooting, let's examine the possible "failure modes and effects" connected to the gun and the handling techniques with a single action revolver:  

1. Given a mechanically correct and properly functioning single action revolver, in order for the gun to fire a live round, a) the hammer must be pulled back to full cock, with the shooter's finger off the trigger, and a round rotated into battery from the left chamber; and, (b), the trigger pulled.

2. "Fanning" the hammer is normally done with the trigger pressed so the full-cock, half-cock and "safety" cock (1st click) do not engage. If the trigger is not pressed, then at least one of the notches on the hammer should engage the trigger sear, stopping it. The original reason for that first notch to be there was to prevent discharge if the hammer slipped off the half-cock while the gun was being loaded.

Now, let us examine possible failure modes that could allow the gun to discharge without the trigger being pulled:

3. If the internal mechanism had been allowed to become dirty, especially with black powder fouling, so that the trigger, once pulled didn't return to the released position thus not becoming engaged with the hammer notches, and the hammer was pulled back, the gun could fire.

4. If either the notches on the hammer or the sear portion of the trigger are broken or excessively worn, the gun could fire if the hammer was cocked and released.

5. In a Colt's-type (original or replica) had a trigger return spring leaf that was broken, and the trigger had been pulled previously, then if the hammer was cocked and released, it could fire.

6. If there was excessive wear on the sides of the trigger, where some lateral play might hinder or prevent engagement with the notches.

Now let us see how possible interaction between the "shooter" and the gun might result in an accidental discharge, where the individual might believe it was not his/her responsibility, i.e., "The gun fired itself!"

7. Most of those of us familiar with handguns, know and by practice, keep our trigger fingers outside the trigger guard when drawing the gun...rigidly held alongside the guard until the gun is pointed safely downrange.  But, a person unfamiliar/unused to handling a handgun could, when drawing from a holster, and particularly a shoulder holster, unconsciously tend to grasp the grip tightly, causing the trigger finger to naturally curl so that it might contact the trigger, either partially or completely, so that, when the hammer was cocked, the gun could discharge.

 

The above are possible modes of failure that could cause the gun to fire with the handler unaware that it could happen.  I am not saying that any of these modes were the probable cause.  A complete examination of the gun by a highly knowledgeable gunsmith familiar with this type of gun should be conducted, with detailed recording of each step!

And then there is the question of who the hell loaded a live round?

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

18 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 sane actor

That's a contradiction in terms, like military intelligence or fun run.

I know, I know, they're not ALL like that, but so many of them are that it's hard NOT to paint them all with the same brush. But where else do you find people who, for a living, stand or move where somebody else tells them, dress like somebody else tells them, and say what somebody else tells them?

[J.D. Daily]

It isn't logical that the FBI tested a twin to the gun that Alec B used.  The FBI description of the gun's operation ended the speculation about which type of Pietta it is.  It has a quarter cock notch so it isn't a transfer bar gun.  The FBI also found that nothing was excessively worn, dirty or broken.  Therefore Alec B had in bugger finger on the bang bang switch when his thumb slipped off the hammer spur.  Unless the DA has exculpatory information Alec is in criminal trouble.  I would hope Alec's history of assholery prevents him from buying off the DA with a huge fine & donations to the local government or charities.

[Trailrider #896]

Alright, J.D.D., then that eliminates #1 thru #6.  Which leaves us with #7, AND MY LAST COMMENT!  To which I will add THE ALL-TIME CREDO OF SAFE GUN HANDLING:  NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL!  I leave legal action to those in authority in the jurisdiction in which the situation occurred. (Of course, given the state of leniency with intentional criminals by DA's in some jurisdiction, A.B. might get off with a warning...not including, of course, lawsuits by family of the deceased.) 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

17 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

The entire system on movie sets is inherently a point of failure. The entire system is based on the premise that an actor can not be trusted to handle a firearm safely, so someone else (an armorer) must handle it safely for him.

 

I see that no sane actor would ever hold any firearm they were not thoroughly familiar with and had not personally verified its condition. Not if they knew they would be criminally liable for any unsafe discharge. Personally. Themselves, Any "armorer" or "insurance" or "system" notwithstanding.

 

One of my pet peeves is knowing that a lot of the tough-guys (or gals) we see in movies or TV shows really know next to nothing about guns, yet since it's a movie we have to pretend they're really as badass as they portray on screen. The truth is somebody often has to tell them how to hold or operate it in a way that actually looks convincing. I once watched a movie where an Asian actress played a deadly assassin, yet in the blooper reels there was a scene where she pointed a gun at someone and accidentally hit the magazine release.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Saw a short clip of him on set and in costume practising drawing from a shoulder hoster. I do not know if this clip is from the rehearsal that killed Ms. Hutchens or not, but as he drew the revolver his trigger finger was clearly way inside the trigger guard up to the second knuckle. An obvious display of poor gun handling skills and most likely ignorance of how a single action operates. He was probably pressing the trigger without even knowing it. The view was from the front and slightly toward his gun hand side.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

52 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

One of my pet peeves is knowing that a lot of the tough-guys (or gals) we see in movies or TV shows really know next to nothing about guns, yet since it's a movie we have to pretend they're really as badass as they portray on screen. The truth is somebody often has to tell them how to hold or operate it in a way that actually looks convincing.

It makes one long for the days of Roy Rogers, Hopalong Cassidy and the like, when the star actually KNEW how to handle a gun.

And in their off time didn't try to tell the rest of us that we shouldn't have guns.

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

Seriously Gents, not to belabor this but.........do any of of us even believe he knows what the trigger is ????????? Or, for that matter where it is located. 

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

20 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Without regard to who specifically could have contributed to the tragic shooting, let's examine the possible "failure modes and effects" connected to the gun and the handling techniques with a single action revolver:  

1. Given a mechanically correct and properly functioning single action revolver, in order for the gun to fire a live round, a) the hammer must be pulled back to full cock, with the shooter's finger off the trigger, and a round rotated into battery from the left chamber; and, (b), the trigger pulled.

2. "Fanning" the hammer is normally done with the trigger pressed so the full-cock, half-cock and "safety" cock (1st click) do not engage. If the trigger is not pressed, then at least one of the notches on the hammer should engage the trigger sear, stopping it. The original reason for that first notch to be there was to prevent discharge if the hammer slipped off the half-cock while the gun was being loaded.

Now, let us examine possible failure modes that could allow the gun to discharge without the trigger being pulled:

3. If the internal mechanism had been allowed to become dirty, especially with black powder fouling, so that the trigger, once pulled didn't return to the released position thus not becoming engaged with the hammer notches, and the hammer was pulled back, the gun could fire.

4. If either the notches on the hammer or the sear portion of the trigger are broken or excessively worn, the gun could fire if the hammer was cocked and released.

5. In a Colt's-type (original or replica) had a trigger return spring leaf that was broken, and the trigger had been pulled previously, then if the hammer was cocked and released, it could fire.

6. If there was excessive wear on the sides of the trigger, where some lateral play might hinder or prevent engagement with the notches.

Now let us see how possible interaction between the "shooter" and the gun might result in an accidental discharge, where the individual might believe it was not his/her responsibility, i.e., "The gun fired itself!"

7. Most of those of us familiar with handguns, know and by practice, keep our trigger fingers outside the trigger guard when drawing the gun...rigidly held alongside the guard until the gun is pointed safely downrange.  But, a person unfamiliar/unused to handling a handgun could, when drawing from a holster, and particularly a shoulder holster, unconsciously tend to grasp the grip tightly, causing the trigger finger to naturally curl so that it might contact the trigger, either partially or completely, so that, when the hammer was cocked, the gun could discharge.

 

The above are possible modes of failure that could cause the gun to fire with the handler unaware that it could happen.  I am not saying that any of these modes were the probable cause.  A complete examination of the gun by a highly knowledgeable gunsmith familiar with this type of gun should be conducted, with detailed recording of each step!

And then there is the question of who the hell loaded a live round?

 

And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?

JHC

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

38 minutes ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?

JHC

 

 .... Two very important questions ^^^ that need answering ....   

[Dawg Hair, SASS #29557]

22 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

 

And then there is the question of who the hell loaded a live round?

 

This reminds me of a blurb I read a long time ago about the film "Enemy at the Gates", about snipers in the battle of Stalingrad.  I read that the actors were taken to a range, given Mosin Nagants loaded with BLANKS, and after they were instructed to fire them, were shown what just the powder from the blanks would do to close-in targets.  This was done in order to make them aware of the fact that a firearm is not a toy, not even when loaded with blanks.  

Of all the millions of rounds safely fired in all the thousands of movies of all genres, it really takes just one moron to break the record 

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

46 minutes ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

 

 .... Two very important questions ^^^ that need answering ....   

that was supposed to be one question. Thought I fixed that

JHC Posting on my phone is a PITA

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

23 minutes ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

that was supposed to be one question. Thought I fixed that

JHC Posting on my phone is a PITA

 

  Actually, I feel that the question not only needs to be asked twice but needs to be ANSWERED twice .......   

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

3 hours ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?And how did live rounds get on the set to start with?

JHC

That ones easy. The CREW, was out PLINKING with THAT gun earlier in the day.

[Muggle]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:25 AM, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Something tells me it will, after all the fallout is done. Too many morbid car-crash watchers with money in their hands to pass up releasing it.

And the movie will be dedicated to the deceased. 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

Yes, there have been many instances where a person was killed on a movie set, but the film was completed anyway. Remember Vic Morrow and two little kids who ended up with a helicopter crashing on their heads during the making of the Twilight Zone movie? And during the filming of the original Flight of the Phoenix the plane the characters built in the desert crashed, killing the pilot. Both films went on to box office success in spite of it... or possibly because of it.

.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:28 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

What I want to know is who pulled the hammer back. 

Who pointed the gun unsafely? 

 

Who failed to check the gun HE was handling? 

 

Who cocked the unchecked gun? 

 

FBI says trigger had to be pulled, so who did that?  

 

Who was negligently ignorant of the gun he was handling?

 

If it was just an accident, that is still "Negligent Manslaughter" -- not just a "no call". 

 

So WTC?

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Alec Baldwin is a liberal - holier than thou pontificating asshat.  Ok?  We all agree?

 

Now place that all aside.

A person lost their life due to either the negligence or deliberate actions of somebody. 

The question is who is at fault.

 

Regardless of what "we" may all think about ingrained gun handling - an ACTOR is not the gun wrangler on the set.  AND the ACTOR is not in charge of declaring firearms safe, loading or unloading them.

 

And from what little I know about the business - any firearms wrangler would immediately protest or walk off set if the ACTORS began manipulating the firearms (loading, unloading or doing ANYTHING other than they were instructed).

So when an ACTOR is handed a firearm and it has been declared as a "cold" prop ( remember that term "prop" - that is ALL it is supposed to be - a prop - not a live firing loaded weapon {and knowing the general ignorance of actors - most would know no difference between a live firearm and a non firing replica}) the actor is expected to handle the prop in accordance with whatever instruction they have received.

 

And set aside all the NEVER point a gun at another person, NEVER pull the trigger, etc.  That does not and has never applied to movie making (make believe pretend) - all of your so called movie heroes from Roy Rogers, Randolph Scott and John Wayne have pointed guns at others and pulled the trigger.  And everyone of them handled the gun as they were INSTRUCTED by the armorers, wranglers or directors on set.

 

Just because it is Baldwin and his politics that your high horses get jumped upon.

 

So lets look at a different HYPOTHETICAL example with an actor most of enjoy and see if you still assign blame the same way.

 

On the set of "John Wick Chapter 7 - They killed another dog and now he's really angry"

 

The scene is Keanu in a muscle car chasing a bad guy on a motorcycle down a crowded sidewalk.

Obligatory tables being smashed into and dozens of close calls of people being barely missed by the bike and the car.

The bad guy slams his brakes to slide the bike into an alley and as he slows to make near impossible turn he snatches a little girl and throws her to the ground directly in the path of the speeding car.

We see all four tires erupt in a cloud of brake smoke as the car screeches to a stop and the bumper and front fender pass over the girls prone body - the still smoking BF Goodrich tire just kissing her left side pigtail.  Keanu jumps from the car, kneels by the girl and hurriedly asks "Are you alright?" before jumping to his feet and continuing the chase on foot.

 

At least thats the way it is scripted.

To ensure that the car stops EXACTLY where it is designated - heavy chain straps are attached to the frame of the car that assure the actress can lay in place and the car cannot pass the certain point.

Keanu is instructed to drive the car at a given speed and at the specified moment - jam the brakes for the tire smoke and screeching.  The straps will actually ensure the car stops.

 

But on practice rehearsal - someone forgets/ neglects to attach the straps and the car is unable to stop in time and the actress laying on the ground is run over and killed.

 

Are you blaming Keanu?

As the ACTOR should he have been responsible for checking the safety rigging?

 

Does it matter who is behind the wheel?

Doesn't the blame lie with whomever said it was safe and ready to perform? 

 

Again Baldwin is trash - but this tragedy happened because of someone elses failure.

[bgavin]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:25 AM, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Something tells me it will, after all the fallout is done. Too many morbid car-crash watchers with money in their hands to pass up releasing it.

Mebbe Ann Heche will make an appearance on an episode of the autopsy channel.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

31 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Alec Baldwin is a liberal - holier than thou pontificating asshat.  Ok?  We all agree?

 

Now place that all aside.

A person lost their life due to either the negligence or deliberate actions of somebody. 

The question is who is at fault.

 

Regardless of what "we" may all think about ingrained gun handling - an ACTOR is not the gun wrangler on the set.  AND the ACTOR is not in charge of declaring firearms safe, loading or unloading them.

 

And from what little I know about the business - any firearms wrangler would immediately protest or walk off set if the ACTORS began manipulating the firearms (loading, unloading or doing ANYTHING other than they were instructed).

So when an ACTOR is handed a firearm and it has been declared as a "cold" prop ( remember that term "prop" - that is ALL it is supposed to be - a prop - not a live firing loaded weapon {and knowing the general ignorance of actors - most would know no difference between a live firearm and a non firing replica}) the actor is expected to handle the prop in accordance with whatever instruction they have received.

 

And set aside all the NEVER point a gun at another person, NEVER pull the trigger, etc.  That does not and has never applied to movie making (make believe pretend) - all of your so called movie heroes from Roy Rogers, Randolph Scott and John Wayne have pointed guns at others and pulled the trigger.  And everyone of them handled the gun as they were INSTRUCTED by the armorers, wranglers or directors on set.

 

Just because it is Baldwin and his politics that your high horses get jumped upon.

 

So lets look at a different HYPOTHETICAL example with an actor most of enjoy and see if you still assign blame the same way.

 

On the set of "John Wick Chapter 7 - They killed another dog and now he's really angry"

 

The scene is Keanu in a muscle car chasing a bad guy on a motorcycle down a crowded sidewalk.

Obligatory tables being smashed into and dozens of close calls of people being barely missed by the bike and the car.

The bad guy slams his brakes to slide the bike into an alley and as he slows to make near impossible turn he snatches a little girl and throws her to the ground directly in the path of the speeding car.

We see all four tires erupt in a cloud of brake smoke as the car screeches to a stop and the bumper and front fender pass over the girls prone body - the still smoking BF Goodrich tire just kissing her left side pigtail.  Keanu jumps from the car, kneels by the girl and hurriedly asks "Are you alright?" before jumping to his feet and continuing the chase on foot.

 

At least thats the way it is scripted.

To ensure that the car stops EXACTLY where it is designated - heavy chain straps are attached to the frame of the car that assure the actress can lay in place and the car cannot pass the certain point.

Keanu is instructed to drive the car at a given speed and at the specified moment - jam the brakes for the tire smoke and screeching.  The straps will actually ensure the car stops.

 

But on practice rehearsal - someone forgets/ neglects to attach the straps and the car is unable to stop in time and the actress laying on the ground is run over and killed.

 

Are you blaming Keanu?

As the ACTOR should he have been responsible for checking the safety rigging?

 

Does it matter who is behind the wheel?

Doesn't the blame lie with whomever said it was safe and ready to perform? 

 

Again Baldwin is trash - but this tragedy happened because of someone elses failure.

How about a well trained police officer with a flawless 13+ year record who reaches for her taser, but in the confusion of a confrontational arrest, she accidentally pulls her sidearm and fires it at the combatant dirtbag, killing him. 

 

It clearly was an unintended accident, but she is serving a 3 year prison sentence now for Negligent Manslaughter. 

 

Accidental or not, in any of these examples, the death still occurred because of negligent  actions of another person. 

It is not a "no call" situation.

 

Sorry, but I'm a hard-liner.  Had Baldwin been careful and diligent, his friend would be alive today. 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

There is some confusion  between the question of Baldwin's fault/responsibility and the question as to whether he would be charged with criminal homicide; i.e. manslaughter.

 

I agree with Creeker that we wouldn't be talking about this again, or so much before, if the actor was somebody besides Baldwin or another disliked for his political views.

 

He's one of the negligent people involved, and he doubtless pulled the trigger. On the the other hand, a neophyte with a cocked single-action revolver might think he had not pulled the trigger when he must have done so. So he was negligent and has civil liability along with others.

 

But he's not going to be charged with manslaughter or any other criminal charge (I bet), not because he's famous, rich, "Hollywood" or anything like that, but because he has a very strong defense to criminal liability: he had no intent to shoot her, much less kill her, and he was told the gun was 'cold', and actors, it can be shown, are entitled to rely on that assurance on a movie set. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Baldwin was also the executive producer of this film. The buck stops with him! He hired everyone including the armorer. He’s responsible for everything on that set! He should have had an NRA instructor on the set but between him being cheap he’s also antigun! What a total moron !!