Failure to fire

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

At today’s match Shortcake and I apparently angered the primer gods. I had 3 rounds not fire and she had 2. All were reloaded last week with Federal primers. She shoots a Marlin 94 and I an Uberti 73.

Prior to reloading the cases were wet tumbled without primers, and dried in a food dehydrator. The reloading room is temperature and humidity controlled to 72 degrees at 35-40% humidity. Both rifles had been stripped down and cleaned 48 hours ago. The Uberti had a new extended firing pin installed this week. This has never happened before. Wondering what to try next before contacting Federal.

Suggestions?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I've had three failures to fire with Federal 100s this year.  One cost me a clean match at EOT.

[Doc Shapiro]

The primer strikes look a little light.  What are the springs you're using?  Might need a little more there.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Did you try shooting them a second time, or in a different rifle?

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

33 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Did you try shooting them a second time, or in a different rifle?

Second time in same rifle, no fire.

Fire in pistols.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

35 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

The primer strikes look a little light.  What are the springs you're using?  Might need a little more there.

Whatever springs came with the gun. We've been shooting these for a good five years.

Worked great last month at the Illinois State match.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Too light a firing pin strike to fire.   Can be caused by

- not seating primers to bottom of pocket

- using rifle primers instead of pistol in pistol cartridges

- springs have weakened in firearm = this DOES happen with Uberti flat springs

- firearm(s) are dirty or worn in critical fire-control areas.    Dirty could EASILY have happened since last month.

 

But - recent repair/maintenance work nearly always should be suspect FIRST:

1 hour ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

The Uberti had a new extended firing pin installed this week.

 

To verify if your firearm(s) are faulty - have someone else fire the cartridges in their functional guns.   You have already just about proven this is a problem if your 73 rifle won't fire them and your revolvers will.

 

So, either the new firing pin is bad (short, oversize,  bent, won't fit in the bore of the bolt properly) or it has been installed improperly.  Or something else in the fire control system has been installed improperly.  (Hammer, hammer spring, firing pin extension, etc., etc.)

 

Federal primers usually are easiest to light off.  If you have problems with them, you will have problems with all others, most likely.  Blaming the factory is the LAST thing I would do at this point (and the thing least likely to get a workable path forward), unless you can see or measure something about the primers that is abnormal.

 

good luck, GJ

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

Thanks GJ.

 

If it is a mechanical failure, and that may very well be the case, I would have thought more rounds would have failed. But that could go either way as well. Out of 50 rifle rounds her Marlin had two not fire, and I had three. 

 

Her Marlin never, ever does that. The Uberti gets finicky when it gets dirty. She shoots smokeless, I shoot APP. With both rifles being cleaned before the match it was a bit disturbing to have 5 failures.

 

I'm not looking to wipe my hands on Federal's shirt, but there is that possibility. Ammo and components have been recalled before.

 

A well written response as usual. Thank you. I will try your suggestions.

[Trailrider #896]

Years ago, when the Space Shuttle was flying, the  Solid Rocket Booster recovery parachutes deployed in a reefed condition. That is, there were two bands around the canopy designed to prevent the canopy from opening fully initially.  At a certain point each reefing line was cut sequentially so the canopy opened in three separate stages. The reefing lines were cut with a ballistically actuated cutter. At initial deployment, a lanyard attached to the cutter fired it, which set off a fuse powder chain. The time delay and the charge that set the guillotine in motion to cut the line was actuated by the MIL-SPEC version of a small rifle primer.  There were two reefing line cutters per each reefing line as a backup.  On one occasion, after recovering one chute it was found that one of the cutter's primers had not fired, in spite of proper firing pin impact.  The other cutter worked okay, so no problem.  Howver, NASA wet ape$#i+.  They demanded that Olin (Winchester) insure there would never be another FTF.  To which Olin replied, "We expect one (1) failure in every 1,000 primers, and if that is not satisfactory, you may go qualify another vendor!"  NASA declined to do so. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I got into a batch of bad Federal small pistol primers that I bought about 5 years ago.  I had several failures to fire at a monthly match.  Enough that it really concerned me.  I had a whole ammo can loaded with the same batch of primers.  I went to the range and used it for practice.  I basically wanted to recover my brass and get some practice out the ammo.  I couldn't trust it any more.   I had 25 bad primers in that batch of 1,000.  None of the other primers in that sleeve gave me any problems.  

[Sgt Sinew]

Just went thru similar problem with my 2 Uberti 1873 SAA. Would randomly fail to fire. I also use Federal primers. I replaced both main springs, test fired today. 100 rounds thru the 2 guns. No fail to fire. I even ran the fail to fire rounds thru the guns and they fired.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I'm with the guys who see light primer strikes.  Whether or not the rifles have "never never" done this before, one must respect Murphy.  There can be multiplicities of mechanical reasons as mentioned by Garrison Joe that rear their ugly head.  THE most common is light firing pin strikes.  If your cartridges fired in your other guns, your Federal Primers are the very least likely problem. 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

You also (on yer ‘73) might  tighten the hammer spring screw about a quarter turn at a time until ya get good hammer strikes.. they do look a little light..

just sayin..

[Eyesa Horg]

Odd both rifles had the same issue. Only common denominator is the primer. Maybe they are just a tad harder and need just a little more spring. How did the firing pin dent look on the ones that fired normal?

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Odd both rifles had the same issue. Only common denominator is the primer. Maybe they are just a tad harder and need just a little more spring. How did the firing pin dent look on the ones that fired normal?

 

Not a good indicator... Stuff happen to a fired round that doesn't happen to an unfired round.

 

Phantom

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

46 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Odd both rifles had the same issue. Only common denominator is the primer. Maybe they are just a tad harder and need just a little more spring. How did the firing pin dent look on the ones that fired normal?

 

They all looked the same.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

To 'lite' FP mark.

Increase the hammer spring tension on the guns.

Also, check the cyl indexing on the revolvers.

[Doc Shapiro]

I think I'd start with a detailed cleaning and reassembly.  If that doesn't fix it, then move on to replacing the hammer springs.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

One last thing.

Try some factory ammo......

["Big Boston"]

Were the primers old stock or newly purchased? When a primer does not fire, the case does not get smacked back under pressure, so the strike will look light(ish). 

 

I'm grasping at straws, it's a puzzler to me. Can't be a brass issue, you have a fairly decent selection of various brands.

 

BB

[Sarge]

I had a similar problem that I believe was caused by Lyman Quick Slick case lube.  I couldn't find One Shot at one point during the pandemic.  Tried Lyman.  Immediately started having FTF problems.  Stopped using the Lyman stuff and went back to One Shot.  Problem went away.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

45 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

Were the primers old stock or newly purchased? When a primer does not fire, the case does not get smacked back under pressure, so the strike will look light(ish). 

 

I'm grasping at straws, it's a puzzler to me. Can't be a brass issue, you have a fairly decent selection of various brands.

 

BB

Primers are no more than two months old.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

The fact that the FTF primers fired OK in the pistols rules out the option of bad primers (which are, in fact, quite uncommon).

 

I see you had the problem in several different brands of cases, which were identically cleaned.  That pretty much rules out case mis-manufacture or cleaning problems.  

 

If something in the rifle is structurally wrong, you would expect the FTF to occur at nearly every firing. But your problem is sporadic, which suggests shooter timing error.  

 

If you discount the possibility of shooter error, and want to pursue structural issues with the rifle, 

I would first take a good look at the new firing pin and its installation.  If the pin is not perfectly straight, clean  and smooth, or the FP boring or spring have firing crud in or on them, the force of the hammer strike will be attenuated.  If the firing pin shoulder is machined too long, it will hold the FP back and prevent proper protrusion. (But again, you would expect that to occur with every round fired). 

 

Look also at the firing pin extension.  If it is rough, polish it.  If it is out of round, replace it.  If the FP does not protrude from the bolt normally (about 1/16") when you push forward on the hammer, with bolt closed, the extension may need to be TIG- weld extended at the hammer end.

 

But given that your problem is SPORADIC, I seriously doubt it is the gun or primers, which goes back to shooter timing errors.   If you are opening the bolt prematurely, it is easy to back the bolt off enough to shorten the FP strike (and also bend a lever or lifter arm due to the OOBD).  With lightened springs, it is  common for shooters to outrun the hammer fall on '73 rifles. 

Try the same ammo and primers in the same gun in very slow firing, with a pause between each round.   If all of the rounds fire, it is time to break out the snap cap(s) and dry fire practice until you get the timing down on your newly worked-on rifle.

 

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

All good points, Dale. I made some modifications at the suggestions of some who posted here, so we will see what happens today.

 

While shooter timing is a valid point, (more towards me than Shortcake), then why wouldn't the same primers ignite after being hit a second and third time in the same gun? With those second and third attempts being meticulously levered and bolt closed?

 

Thanks for writing back.

 

Now off to the match!

[Rye Miles #13621]

14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

The primer strikes look a little light.  What are the springs you're using?  Might need a little more there.

I'm no gunsmith but that's what I was thinking! I get a strike like that once in awhile from my 73 but then it goes off in my Colts.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

In the Marlin, ck for a broken FP.

Most common break is in the front section.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Since the problem did not exist before and now exists in two rifles, I would suspect the ammo.  My best guess would be the first cause mentioned by Garrison Joe above, primers not fully seated.  That robs some of the hammer power.  If you still have any of that batch of ammo, stand them all on their bases on a very flat surface (like a mirror) and see if any of them rock.  I think if the newest batch of primers from Federal were harder, we'd be hearing more reports.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

Update!!

 

Primers all are seated properly and stand tall without wobbling.

 

Both rifles were stripped down and cleaned again. Bolt, firing pins and related assemblies were inspected for any abnormal wear or poor alignment.

 

The hammer tension screw on the 73 was tightened approximately 1/4 turn.

 

The Marlin mainspring had a washer added to increase the tension.

 

Today's match, with the same ammo had no misfires.

 

Could be one thing, or a combination of things that led to the firing failures.

 

Thank you Cowboy Carty for your information on the Marlin.

 

Big thank you to all who read this post and replied.

 

The cowboy way in action!

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

3 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

Update!!

 

Primers all are seated properly and stand tall without wobbling.

 

Both rifles were stripped down and cleaned again. Bolt, firing pins and related assemblies were inspected for any abnormal wear or poor alignment.

 

The hammer tension screw on the 73 was tightened approximately 1/4 turn.

 

The Marlin mainspring had a washer added to increase the tension.

 

Today's match, with the same ammo had no misfires.

 

Could be one thing, or a combination of things that led to the firing failures.

 

Thank you Cowboy Carty for your information on the Marlin.

 

Big thank you to all who read this post and replied.

 

The cowboy way in action!

And a BIG ATTA BOY to you folks!! Ya done good..

[Kid Rich]

PM sent.

kR

[Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727]

Law dog

 

If you remember I used to own Shortcake's rifle. I know there was a washer behind the mainspring. You said you had bust cleaned them, wondered if that little washer might have got lost. I see you talked to Cowboy Carty, he knows that rifle because he built it. As for the 73 I have no idea because I shoot Marlins.

 

It seems like you got your problem solved now. Good shooting to you both.

 

Marlin

 

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

27 minutes ago, Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727 said:

Law dog

 

If you remember I used to own Shortcake's rifle. I know there was a washer behind the mainspring. You said you had bust cleaned them, wondered if that little washer might have got lost. I see you talked to Cowboy Carty, he knows that rifle because he built it. As for the 73 I have no idea because I shoot Marlins.

 

It seems like you got your problem solved now. Good shooting to you both.

 

Marlin

 

We certainly do remember shooting with you on those Shady Creek Sundays! She totally loves that Marlin. I would not tell her it’s me or the Marlin because my bags would be packed. Nice hearing from you and hope all is well.

[Trailrider #896]

Another thing: Some years ago, there were six (6) lots of Winchester Large Pistol Primers that had a large number of FTF's.  So, it can happen!   I still have the list of lots.  You might post the lots of primers and see if anyone else is experiencing similar problems.  Just sayin'...

[Tequila Shooter]

I’ve heard that since all the changes in ownership that the new Federals are a little harder than the old ones.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:58 AM, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

All good points, Dale. I made some modifications at the suggestions of some who posted here, so we will see what happens today.

 

While shooter timing is a valid point, (more towards me than Shortcake), then why wouldn't the same primers ignite after being hit a second and third time in the same gun? With those second and third attempts being meticulously levered and bolt closed?

 

Thanks for writing back.

 

Now off to the match!

Good luck at the match, first and foremost!

 

Shooter timing can produce the whole array of light to hard primer strikes.  But if, as you stated, the primers did not fire when meticulously retried, it suggests either: 1) Shooter timing error was not the issue, as you inferred, or 2) that the primer anvils were deformed in the initial lighter strikes.  

 

I had similar problems about three years ago.  I began by trying to figure out what was wrong in my ammo, then my rifle.  After being advised by several long-in-tooth shooters, I finally accepted that my problem could be my own pilot error.  After a time it became more obvious that I was outrunning the hammer fall and firing OOB.  It became more obvious as the OOBs became more numerous ( as many at ten or twelve per match), because they were incrementally  deforming the lever and lifter arm.  The OOBDs also became much more pronounced and noticeable, even hurting my lever hand occasionally.   

 

I re-aligned the hardware and began dry fire practicing with a snap cap in the chamber with its rim cut down to miss the ejector.  I also practiced frequent live firing, starting deliberately and slowly, but working up to speed in each session.  I finally developed the correct timing muscle memory  and have had few light primer hits since.  

 

In your case, I think I would look at both, the rifle and the shooter timing.  JMHO.