44 Mag Bullets at Max Rifle Velocity

[bgavin]

This does not pertain to SASS, but I'm having trouble finding answers.

I'm curious about bullets in 44 caliber rifles that exceed the manufacturers' published velocity specs.
For example:  the Hornady #44050 XTP is stated for a velocity range of 750-1400 (+/-) in the Hornady catalog.

Hodgdon has a published load for this bullet with H110 powder, at 2286 fps.

Q: what happens to handgun bullets such as this XTP when pushed faster than the factory recommendations?

 

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

Typically, the core separates from the jacket and fragments upon impact.  Results in a shallow wound.  

[Pat Riot]

Well, they could feasibly break up or have jacket separation at high velocities. Especially if the are over crimped or barrel rifling causes excessive jacket wear. 

[bgavin]

I'm curious, as the 444 Marlin is probably the most potent of the 44 mag cartridges, and no doubt produced significant velocities.

What bullets would be used in this high velocity situation?

[Alpo]

Jug Johnson should know.

 

 

This is a story about a wildcat. The 44/50 Jug.

 

50 BMG necked down to 44 caliber using a 240 grain 44 magnum bullet.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

59 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I'm curious, as the 444 Marlin is probably the most potent of the 44 mag cartridges, and no doubt produced significant velocities.

What bullets would be used in this high velocity situation?

The 265 grain Hornady.

[Michigan Slim]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

I'm curious, as the 444 Marlin is probably the most potent of the 44 mag cartridges, and no doubt produced significant velocities.

What bullets would be used in this high velocity situation?

I loaded 300 grain Hornady SP in .444 using H335. Thumpers for sure. In .44 mag rifle we load Hornady XTP, 240 grain using H110. Kaya shot a buck with her Marlin at like 30 feet one time. Put it behind the shoulder as it was twisting around to run. The bullet was in the neck, opened up to about the size of a quarter. The shoulder was completely disconnected and I could have reached in up the neck to get the bullet. The wound channel was bigger than a baseball. I don't load down my .44 rounds. That bullet was packing some poundage when it hit that buck and stayed together for over two feet through that deer. 

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

3 hours ago, bgavin said:

Hodgdon has a published load for this bullet with H110 powder, at 2286 fps.

I only see 31.5 max for 180 bullet at 1,896fps on Hodgons page.,,, which is still over the recommendation. 
I like the xtp bullets and use the 240gr at just under max loading in 44 mag rifle. But like others have said they don’t work well pushed real hard. Tried in the 444 with mixed results, they just don’t stay together. Much better results with the 265 Hornady or 270 nossler, however not much fun for the shoulder. 
LF. 

[Pat Riot]

I learned a little lesson recently about following a manufacturer’s velocity recommendations. A few months ago I was loading Berry’s 158 grain .357” copper plated bullets in .357 Magnum cases and experimenting with W244 powder, wonderful powder by the way. 
The Berry’s box had a warning. “Do not exceed 1200 feet per second with these bullets.”

I was loading the rounds using 6.2 grains of Winchester 244 and small pistol magnum primers with a decent crimp. 
According to Hodgdon this load should be at 1204 fps from a 10” barrel at 33,100 psi in pressure. 1900 psi below .357 magnum’s SAAMI limit. 
It was a very nice load from my 4.2” GP100.

From my S&W model 19 it was grouping nicely but the bullet holes in the target at 10 yards had funny tears around the bullet holes. An indication that the jacket may be tearing at the crimp, so I have been told. 
Any way, on cylinder #3 of this load in my model 19 I pulled the trigger and felt a sting to my left cheek like a bee had stung me. I rubbed it and continued shooting. Then I felt the blood dripping into my beard. I went to the restroom. I had a little tiny hole in my cheek in the shape of a little crescent moon. I am pretty sure it was jacket material (copper) from that bullet. I think my body had finally absorbed it because I can’t feel it there any longer. It was deep. 
I decided to skip shooting any more of those in the 19. 
Upon investigation I am pretty sure I actually loaded those rounds with 6.3 grains of powder. Also, my crimp would have been fine for a FMJ bullet, but probably not for a plated bullet pushing it’s max velocity as warned by the maker. 

 

Side Note: When the Winchester 350 Legend cartridge was developed one of the big fears by some was that people would use .357 Magnum pistol bullets in their 350 Legend cartridges. To hear some tell it, it seemed like the end of the world. The SAAMI dimensions for the 350L bullet are 0.357”-.030”. In other words .354-.357” bullets, but Winchester insists on a .355 bullet. 
I am sure one could resize .357 Magnum bullets for it or even just use them as is, but the velocity specs for the 350L are well above .357 Magnums. The bullets may work, they may not. 
 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

bgavin,

this is a good topic.

 

I like those recommendation above stating the 265 and 270 grain bullets may work great in the .44 rifle, along with some of those heavier

XTP bullets from Hornady.

 

I don't shoot the .44 in a rifle, but I do shoot the .45 Colt in a 16.5" Marlin.    With HOT load data, rifle performance in the 16.6" barrel equals

the performance of the .454 Casull in the 7" pistol barrel.   I'll just say its impressive...... very impressive.

 

Luckily, the jacketed bullets I've used have worked great........ and they've been on the heavy side.   

I use the Hornday 240 XTP-MAG,   300 XTP-MAG,  and the 250 XTP.   The 250 is only XTP, as it does not have the MAG classification.

 

Soooooo, if you can find some Hornady .44 bullets that carry the XTP-MAG name, those might be your meal ticket.

 

ALSO, my guess would be that some of the good 'hard cast' bullets might work well for you, especially those in the heavier rate range.

 

Good luck...... and keep us posted.

 

..........Widder

 

[July Smith]

14 hours ago, bgavin said:

I'm curious, as the 444 Marlin is probably the most potent of the 44 mag cartridges, and no doubt produced significant velocities.

What bullets would be used in this high velocity situation?

No experience with the 444 Marlin, but the Barnes line of X bullets are excellent about staying together.

[bgavin]

I have 225 gr FTX in stock after a trade, but none of the heavier 265 gr FTX.
I found a Hornady PDF that rates the FTX for 1600~2600 fps.
A different Hornady catalog PDF show the XTP is rated for a lesser FPS range.
The FTX is definitely designed to go faster.

Using the Hodgdon published loads, the 180 grain XTP #44050 with 31.5 grains of H110 produces the most muzzle energy.

This also pushes the XTP bullet to 2296 fps, which far exceeds the maximum fps spec.

The maximum load for the 225 grain FTX #44105 is with Lil' Gun at 1749 fps.
The FTX is rated for higher FPS, but does not approach this with Hodgdon maximum loads.

I"m not able to find maximum FPS for the Speer, Sierra or Nosler bullets that all run 1900 fps or faster with max loads.




 

[Pat Riot]

2 hours ago, bgavin said:

I have 225 gr FTX in stock after a trade, but none of the heavier 265 gr FTX.
I found a Hornady PDF that rates the FTX for 1600~2600 fps.
A different Hornady catalog PDF show the XTP is rated for a lesser FPS range.
The FTX is definitely designed to go faster.

Using the Hodgdon published loads, the 180 grain XTP #44050 with 31.5 grains of H110 produces the most muzzle energy.

This also pushes the XTP bullet to 2296 fps, which far exceeds the maximum fps spec.

The maximum load for the 225 grain FTX #44105 is with Lil' Gun at 1749 fps.
The FTX is rated for higher FPS, but does not approach this with Hodgdon maximum loads.

I"m not able to find maximum FPS for the Speer, Sierra or Nosler bullets that all run 1900 fps or faster with max loads.




 

You should try emailing Hornady directly and finding out what the bullets can handle in regards to pure maximum feet per second. Reloading data just gives you the max pressure and speed for a particular load. 

[bgavin]

Hornady does publish a general chart for their XTP bullets.

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks for posting that chart.

 

Looks like my favorites can achieve some pretty high velocities.

I also like the .45 in 185 XTP for my 460 Rowlands.   The 460 Rowland is an impressive cartridge in the 1911 setup.

 

..........Widder

 

[Savvy Jack]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:09 PM, bgavin said:

Hornady does publish a general chart for their XTP bullets.

 

 

Note the chart says Impact Velocity Performance. This is the velocity needed for the hollow points to perform near to, or as designed for expansion.

 

 

 

Two left, 45 Colt Speer GDHP factory loads....right, custom load to get it to expand properly

 

 

 

44Mag Sonoluminescence

 

[bgavin]

Got it, thanks.
Nice diagnostic work.
My question is about high velocity 2200+ that exceeds the above chart.

I don't know if the XTP comes apart at that velocity, tumbles and keyholes, or ??