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Does everything have to be electronic?


Dusty Devil Dale

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Rip, I could not agree more. 

 

And don't get me started on the myth of DDT-Silent Spring.   Carson's book tugged on folks heart strings, including legislators, but it simply was not founded upon repeatable or  verifiable science.  I worked for many years in water quality and pesticide regulation as related to fish and wildlife.  I can tell you Silent Spring was agenda-based fiction --not a scientific treatise. 

 

Somehow all the Califonia Brown Pelicans' egg shells got thicker again after the US prohibited DDT use.  But the "inconvenient truth" is that Mexico and all of the Central American countries continued using DDT into this Century, and some still do use it in large quantities, with residue washing to sea.  The seasonally migratory  Pelicans spend the 8 months prior to nesting on the Mexixan coast, foraging on marine fish that have bioaccumulated levels of DDT.  The egg shell thinning and successful re-thickening was based on expectations, not scientific research.  The entire body of following DDT science was driven by societally presumed outcomes, based on the book, rather than on valid, controlled testing.  

 

(Dang, I got started after all -- I better quit before this gets VERY long).

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18 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Just look up the human cost of banning DDT in the Third World.  

Absolutely.  As a Navy Brat in the Phillipeans, during the '50s,  my wife recalls the streets being fogged by military jeeps  with DDT every evening to control mosquito disease vectors.  The kids used to go out and play, running through the white fog without ill effects (it is only oil soluble).  

The fogging was purposeful.  Thousands of humans would otherwise die annually of malaria and other mosquito- borne diseases.  

The same protective  fogging took place in Africa, India, Pakistan, Burma, Central America, and other areas.  Researchers once determined that upwards of 3 million people per year were saved from disease infection by DDT application.  

 

But I dare anybody even to try to reverse the errant laws that were made in response to public outcry after Silent Spring.  The liberal, uninformed media (i.e., our real government nowadays) would whip the public into another irrational frenzy of protests against agriculture, and probable property  destruction or worse.  

 

(Somehow, I sidetracked my own OP after all !)

 

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My 2006 Mazda MX-5 Miata has a card key that must be nearby (in a pocket or purse) and you can unlock the doors by pressing a button on the door handle then start the car by turning a fake key on a real ignition switch. 
The card key controls the locking and unlocking of the car and setting / disabling the alarm. It also has a real key inserted in the card key in case the battery dies in the card key. 
The card key and the ignition key have electronic sensors so the car knows the key and card go to that car and only that car.

The car came with two card keys. One is in great shape. The other, the one I carry is a little banged up. I asked for a price to replace the banged up one. $600! $300 for the card and $300 for the key. 
I saved money by taping the card key up with Scotch gift wrap tape and it works just fine. ;)
 

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12 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

In high school, I had a '48 Chevy 1-ton truck that had a starter button on the floorboards rather than on a key fob.  It wasn't a V8 but it had a nice 236 in-line 6.  It didnt have remote starting, warning chimes to drive you crazy, a cell phone bluetooth connection, an FM radio, or auto-dimming headlights (that only work on straight roads).  But it did have the stakeside flatbed that I built, a VERY low granny gear and a very low rear end gear ratio that enabled it to climb or tow just about anything.  The deep green body was like new with all mouldings intact.  I stupidly sold it for $400 in 1968.  If offered a new 1-ton pickup today, or that old '48, I'd have to give serious thought.   

 

Oh, also, it would start and run in the event of an EMP.  All you needed was $0.25 /gal leaded regular gas. It had no computer or dash full of harnesses.  Its electronics consisted of the 6V battery leads to the starter button and starter motor, the head and tail lights, and the inside dome light. 

And yes, (God forbid!) it had the rifle rack (usually with rifle or shotgun) in the rear window, typical of the time. 

 

It always got me where I wanted to go just fine, along with the woman to whom I am still married.  It even had seat belts!

 

I wanna go back!  I don't really need or want all this wondrous electronic gewizzardry and ridiculous cost.   I repaired the '48 myself, including an engine rebuild.  

You make good points. OTH, back in the day where could you buy a car with 455 hp, 455 torque, 180 mph+ top speed, quarter mile in the mid 12s, that averaged over 18 mpg and was rock solid dependable for at least the first 60k miles?

 

Not to mention lights turn off and on automatically, rev match, better thermostat than most houses, monthly diagnostic emails. HUD!  Heads up display is a lot more useful than you might think. Never having to take your eyes off the road is pretty cool.

 

Heck last time I picked up a nail it emailed me and let me know I had low pressure. I’ve never had a car email me before

 

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52 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You make good points. OTH, back in the day where could you buy a car with 455 hp, 455 torque, 180 mph+ top speed, quarter mile in the mid 12s, that averaged over 18 mpg and was rock solid dependable for at least the first 60k miles?

 

Not to mention lights turn off and on automatically, rev match, better thermostat than most houses, monthly diagnostic emails. HUD!  Heads up display is a lot more useful than you might think. Never having to take your eyes off the road is pretty cool.

 

Heck last time I picked up a nail it emailed me and let me know I had low pressure. I’ve never had a car email me before

 

Those things are improvements, to be sure; at least when they work properly.  But they all come at huge cost and most of the electronic features lack longevity.  I usually have to plan for each feature to be repaired at least once at big cost.   

Reliability is better today, generally, but in the past I carried a tool kit and could road repair most things that went wrong, if I maintained the car properly in the first place.  Today, my tool kit consists of a cell phone or Onstar type facility, and the hope that I can get reception in the remote places where I travel.  Absent electronic analysis capability, todays cars are not road repairable. 

 

 It is true that inflation contributed to the costs we see today (that exceed costs of houses back un the 80s).  But the cost of electronic options and features adds a great deal of cost.  Today, a fleet model F250 pickup still costs under 30K.  They have all the required safety equipment, like ABS breaks, etc. But add all of the manufacturer's involuntarily "packaged"  features you've described and you are pushing cost at $70K or more.  So is it worth $40+K to get emails from your car, or to start your car from inside your house, or have a bluetooth phone connection?

Or are those just expensive toys that really have little to do with transportation or safety? 

 

And when was the last time you could actually follow the foreign written instructiins in an owner's manual, where you look up jack location under "C" for the verb-- "Change (a flat tire)." or can't figure out if your car is "so equipped" among the 36 vehicle models  covered in the cryptic manual.

Not for me, thanks. 

 

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I've been in the computer business just under 50 years now.
I want as little of this in my vehicles and devices, as possible.

One of my lodge past masters owns and operates NorCal Body Repair and produces premium work.
I'd contract with him to do a full restore on a pre-1977 pickup.. disc brakes, the works.
Power it with a stump pulling V8 that is exempt from CA smog testing.

The last one I built like this was an '83 Dodge 340 with custom ground Isky cam at 256/262 on 106° centers.
I settled for an Edelbrock manifold because the Offenhauser Dual-Port was no longer in production.  A pity on that one.
Small tube headers dialed the whole rig to be all-there at 2800 rpm.
The tight lobe centers burbled a bit at idle, but since I drive stick, this was of no concern.

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31 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Those things are improvements, to be sure; at least when they work properly.  But they all come at huge cost and most of the electronic features lack longevity.  I usually have to plan for each feature to be repaired at least once at big cost.   

Reliability is better today, generally, but in the past I carried a tool kit and could road repair most things that went wrong, if I maintained the car properly in the first place.  Today, my tool kit consists of a cell phone or Onstar type facility, and the hope that I can get reception in the remote places where I travel.  Absent electronic analysis capability, todays cars are not road repairable. 

 

 It is true that inflation contributed to the costs we see today (that exceed costs of houses back un the 80s).  But the cost of electronic options and features adds a great deal of cost.  Today, a fleet model F250 pickup still costs under 30K.  They have all the required safety equipment, like ABS breaks, etc. But add all of the manufacturer's involuntarily "packaged"  features you've described and you are pushing cost at $70K or more.  So is it worth $40+K to get emails from your car, or to start your car from inside your house, or have a bluetooth phone connection?

Or are those just expensive toys that really have little to do with transportation or safety? 

 

And when was the last time you could actually follow the foreign written instructiins in an owner's manual, where you look up jack location under "C" for the verb-- "Change (a flat tire)." or can't figure out if your car is "so equipped" among the 36 vehicle models  covered in the cryptic manual.

Not for me, thanks. 

 

LOL.  No tire changes for me.  It doesn't come with a spare.  There's no room for a 305 20 inch tire in the trunk.  I sympathize with your point of view.  We're probably using our vehicles for different purposes.  Mine is for an occasional weekend drive, or a roadtrip to a SASS match/vacation.  In both cases I like the creature comforts. 

 

Even if it was as easy to work on as some of the cars I owned back in the 70s and 80s I still wouldn't work on it. I would take it to a shop.  When I was younger I did all the work on my cars.  I had no choice.  It was fix it yourself or walk.  Now I'm happy to pay someone else to do everything except clean it and put gas in it.

 

Having said that, a '69 Ford truck would be pretty cool to have.

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

LOL.  No tire changes for me.  It doesn't come with a spare.  There's no room for a 305 20 inch tire in the trunk.  I sympathize with your point of view.  We're probably using our vehicles for different purposes.  Mine is for an occasional weekend drive, or a roadtrip to a SASS match/vacation.  In both cases I like the creature comforts. 

 

Even if it was as easy to work on as some of the cars I owned back in the 70s and 80s I still wouldn't work on it. I would take it to a shop.  When I was younger I did all the work on my cars.  I had no choice.  It was fix it yourself or walk.  Now I'm happy to pay someone else to do everything except clean it and put gas in it.

 

Having said that, a '69 Ford truck would be pretty cool to have.

Actually, lifestyle-wise, we're pretty similar.  I just take cars to the shop now and pay the cost.  But I'm less impressed by the creature comforts in autos.  Truth is, my cars have a lot of features that I've never had the patience to learn how to use.  Maybe that ignorance is part of my frustration, but I just dont need all that complexity in my life any more.

 

If you have a voice controlled audio system with the cute female voice that gives you directions, try asking her for a date.  I did that for a laugh, and she shut me down succinctly!

 

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Gasoline engine is 120 year old technology.  To meet the ever increasing emissions and MPG requirements efficiency needed to be improved.  So they added a bunch of sensors and a computer to do so.

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20 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Gasoline engine is 120 year old technology.  To meet the ever increasing emissions and MPG requirements efficiency needed to be improved.  So they added a bunch of sensors and a computer to do so.

Agree, and that kind of electronic engine and emission  control is understandable and worthwhile.  They have made cars much more reliable and the air much cleaner.

 

The things that irritate are are the half-thought-through door locking and security  systems and extra things like  remote starts, auto headlight dimming, and other unnecessary  whiz-bang features, some of which  render the car inoperable when they fail; or things that force the driver to watch  distracting computer screen messages rather than the road.   

And I don't need my truck to tell me with 15 LOUD chime notes that I turned on the headlights, or operated the trailer break lever, or that I opened the driver door (even when the transmission is in Park), or that I unfastened the seat belt to get out to open a gate.  And I don't always want all the lights to go on when I open a door to enter or leave the car. Neighbors in campgrounds just love that at 2:00 AM. 

The design engineers seem to think that one size fits all -- everyone is just an urban commuter. 

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46 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Actually, lifestyle-wise, we're pretty similar.  I just take cars to the shop now and pay the cost.  But I'm less impressed by the creature comforts in autos.  Truth is, my cars have a lot of features that I've never had the patience to learn how to use.  Maybe that ignorance is part of my frustration, but I just dont need all that complexity in my life any more.

 

If you have a voice controlled audio system with the cute female voice that gives you directions, try asking her for a date.  I did that for a laugh, and she shut me down succinctly!

 

I use Siri in conjunction with Apple Music.  That gives me pretty much any song ever recorded. I just say 'Hey Siri, play ....' and I'm rocking.  I use Waze with Batman's voice for directions, but I usually mute him.

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16 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

And in the movies they still film how easy its to enter these new cars and reach under and pull a couple wires out and Hot Wire. Also rarely in crashes do the air bags go off.

I have the ultimate anti-theft device.  A manual transmission.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I have the ultimate anti-theft device.  A manual transmission.

I just read that only 15% of present day drivers know how to drive a stick.  

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I have the ultimate anti-theft device.  A manual transmission.

I wish I had one, there’s hardly any available on new cars that is!

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17 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

My 2006 Mazda MX-5 Miata has a card key that must be nearby (in a pocket or purse) and you can unlock the doors by pressing a button on the door handle then start the car by turning a fake key on a real ignition switch. 
The card key controls the locking and unlocking of the car and setting / disabling the alarm. It also has a real key inserted in the card key in case the battery dies in the card key. 
The card key and the ignition key have electronic sensors so the car knows the key and card go to that car and only that car.

The car came with two card keys. One is in great shape. The other, the one I carry is a little banged up. I asked for a price to replace the banged up one. $600! $300 for the card and $300 for the key. 
I saved money by taping the card key up with Scotch gift wrap tape and it works just fine. ;)
 

 

Try a self stick lamination sheet

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On 8/2/2022 at 11:14 AM, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Not a car but we had issues with a new stove and the computer board. Board burned out twice, the first time as my wife was putting the Thanksgiving turkey in.

I found an outfit that makes appliances for off the grid living. No computer. A 9 volt battery fires it up. Nothing fancy but it's been working reliably for years now.

We had a bad experience with a new stove top a few years ago. All touch control electronic crap. One night one of the burners came on all by itself. Thankfully it was NOT the one with a skillet of grease on it! Come to find out there was a recall on them for that sort of thing. Fortunately we found on that actually has knobs. I like knobs.

JHC

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31 minutes ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

We had a bad experience with a new stove top a few years ago. All touch control electronic crap. One night one of the burners came on all by itself. Thankfully it was NOT the one with a skillet of grease on it! Come to find out there was a recall on them for that sort of thing. Fortunately we found on that actually has knobs. I like knobs.

JHC

I like knobs too.  The AC on my 2000 F150 works from one selector knob. The thermostat is a simple potentiometer. The fan speed works from another simple knob with three speed choices.  You turn the selector to get the AC compressor to engage, and control the air temp and flow from the two others.

 

  There aren't any digital screens to watch to distract from driving or to expensively replace when they go south. 

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25 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I like knobs too.  The AC on my 2000 F150 works from one selector knob. The thermostat is a simple potentiometer. The fan speed works from another simple knob with three speed choices.  You turn the selector to get the AC compressor to engage, and control the air temp and flow from the two others.

 

  There aren't any digital screens to watch to distract from driving or to expensively replace when they go south. 

I drive an '05 Silverado with like 240K miles for the same reason. A lot of the fancy lights and gizmos no longer work, but the controls do for the most part. I'll probably drive it 'til it goes belly up.

JHC

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Our 2022 Ford Edge is loaded with smart features. 90% we'll never use. Salesman demoed the sound system. Wow! We've never turned on the radio or the phone features.   Three things we do use;  the duel controlled heat and air.  The back up camera display.  And the yellow indicator on mirrors that tell if something is in blind spot.

 

We have used the Google maps function streamed through my phone.  I've learned I can find a route on my phone and the Ford will pick up on that on startup.  Saves talking to or keying in a destination into the display.  

 

We were driving along and Mary got a phone call.  Her ring tone came through the speakers and about blasted us out of the car.  I play something with sound on my phone and it comes through the speakers  - about a half second delay. Very annoying. 

 

Once we were driving to town on our local blacktop and the steering wheel started wobbling.  I thought we had a flat tire or suspension problem.  Turned out I had unknowingly switched on the lane control warning system. It watches the stripes on the road and wobbles the steering wheel if you get to close or over the line.  

 

We were on a trip to Oklahoma and it flashed on a message saying I was getting tired and should pull over. 

 

We get in and on startup,  turn crap off that it defaults to. One is the automatic kill switch if you're at a stop light. Turn the display to black.

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30 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Salesman demoed the sound system. Wow!

I remember one year Daddy was car shopping, and the salesman told him, "Just listen to that stereo!", as he fiddled with bass and treble and adjusting the balance, and Daddy says, "First thing I do when I get in the car is turn the radio off". :lol:

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Depends on your point of view I guess. I set my car thermostat on 73 back when I bought it and haven’t touched it since. If it’s cold outside it kicks in heat. If it’s hot, it picks AC. If there’s a big difference between actual and desired temp it blasts, if not it’s a light touch. Couple that with ceramic tint and my car is rarely too hot or too cold, even in the middle of a Georgia summer. 
 

But underneath it’s still a small block, pushrod Chevy V8. A 60’s muscle car on steroids.

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3 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

We were on a trip to Oklahoma and it flashed on a message saying I was getting tired and should pull over. 

I got that message once when I steered irregularly to go around a cardboard box on the road.  LOL. 

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On interstates, our Honda would beep at me and tell me I needed to steer in big letters on the dash! It didn't seem to like me driving straight with no steering input for too long. That steering wheel wobble startled the hell out of me at first! The automatic braking near caused a crash once, even though it was sorta my fault not knowing the car would do what it did.

Was coming down a long entrance ramp where it was advisable to be going 70 when you merged into the traffic. Right when I get to the end the car in front of me slows down a lot. I glanced in the mirror and did a Nascar move into the traffic without the signal

 Had plenty of room to merge in, but came right behind the car passing me. The car slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting him and damned near created a pile up with the trucks I came in in front of. There was a trailer truck length behind me and the car I came in behind was going faster than me. I never forgot to use the signal after that!

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1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

On interstates, our Honda would beep at me and tell me I needed to steer in big letters on the dash! It didn't seem to like me driving straight with no steering input for too long. That steering wheel wobble startled the hell out of me at first! The automatic braking near caused a crash once, even though it was sorta my fault not knowing the car would do what it did.

Was coming down a long entrance ramp where it was advisable to be going 70 when you merged into the traffic. Right when I get to the end the car in front of me slows down a lot. I glanced in the mirror and did a Nascar move into the traffic without the signal

 Had plenty of room to merge in, but came right behind the car passing me. The car slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting him and damned near created a pile up with the trucks I came in in front of. There was a trailer truck length behind me and the car I came in behind was going faster than me. I never forgot to use the signal after that!

That's really bad! 

 

Another case where some creative design engineer thought they had everything covered in their "improvement", but had only thought halfway through possible scenarios.  

 

They ought to at least be required to tell prospective buyers that it is a partially self-driving vehicle.  

 

 

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Yup, 70+ to 40 in a heartbeat! It did it really smoothly though! Glad the car had some excellent get up & go. I missed having a radio knob to be playing with when the vehicles behind came by giving me the stink eye and a couple gestures!

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My Ol’ Green is still working and may be better than ever! ‘97 Chevy C3500HD dually stretch cab pickup with a Vortec 454 cid EFI engine and 4L80E transmission.  It has power steering, ABS power brakes, air conditioning, and a radio!  It has 388,000+ miles on it and has been almost bulletproof for nearly twenty years since we bought it, used!

 

I farmed out the transmission overhaul because I HATE working on automatic transmissions. Otherwise, I have done all of the maintenance and repairs except tires and wheel balancing.

 

 I’m currently involved in four custom builds. A hotrod Model A sedan, a throwback style Model T street rod, a very unique Jeep truck project, and a cleanup and repaint on my old Harley.  Of the three, the Jeep will have EFI and an electronic controlled transmission and the Harley has solid state ignition.

 

The cars and truck will be creature comfortable, (A/C, power steering and brakes, radio/stereo, and maybe cruise control) but will otherwise be dirt simple!!  All that other stuff is just that, STUFF!!  Things with severely short lifespan and exorbitant costs to maintain, repair, or replace!!

 

I have a 2012 Buick Enclave with 168,000 miles on it. It’s a decent vehicle that has been, for the most part, dependable, but some of the electronics are beginning to show their age and they are so interwoven with the necessary functions for day to day operation that I’m not confident that this vehicle will live the way my other vehicles have.

 

The reason that all of this electronic emissions controls have been added over the years was originally the result of people not properly maintaining their vehicles!  In the late ‘70s/early ‘80s I was involved in some experiments that tested the current equipment of the day.  We built several different combinations and abused the hell out of them.  The one that I did the most with was a high performance V8 Chevrolet.  We took one of the early Z28 302cid engines and did all of the usual and customary high performance modifications to it. Headers, custom carburetor, head and short block modifications, camshaft, ignition system, etc…

 

In doing so, we tailored EVERYTHING toward efficiency.  Hours were spent with tuning equipment and dynamometer.  We used readily obtainable parts that could be bought at the local parts counter or dealership. 
 

The result was a vehicle that was capable of 25+ mpg, was economical to maintain, was very durable, (I drove it daily and often raced it on weekends) was dependable, and met or exceeded all of the federally mandated emissions standards for several years later than when the project was completed!!

 

YES!! The positive of all of the stuff that the electronic age in automobiles is more efficient vehicles.  All of the drawbacks have been less than necessary when you consider that the same economy and durability was possible without much of the geewhiz.

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Dusty Devil,

I had a friend in the same predicament as your wife, dead battery, so the fob would not work, and no keyhole in the door. He had left the lights on. But he knew what to do. He had me pull my truck up close, hook up jumper cables to my truck, crawl up under his car and put the ground clamp on the car frame, and just touch the hot jumper clamp to the battery lead on the starter motor. He was holding the button down on the fob and as soon as I touched the battery lead on the starter, the door unlocked. This simple procedure was probably what the Toyota service people didn't want you to see.

Crusty Steve

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My neighbor has the dash touch screen out of his Highlander... no longer works.
The replacement part is slightly different than the original part.

I told him to buckle up... the symptoms he described sounds more like electronics than the touch screen.

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