BP Substitutes

[John E. Law]

I'm planning on shooting my first BP match for fun, but have never loaded BP/Substitutes and don't know what to use that's available right now.

 

I will be shooting 38spl cases with a 180gr TCFP bullet and 12ga 1/8oz load.

 

The only powders that I have found that are available right now are

 

Hodgdon:

Pyrodex P (FFFg)

Pyrodex RS  (FF)

Pyrodex Select #1  (FF)

Triple 7 T72 (FF)

Triple 7 T73  (FFFg)

 

I'm not looking to switch to BP by any means, just want to have fun with the pards at a couple of upcoming matches.

 

Will any of these powders suit the needs for our game? They're only available in 1lb cans so buy two different types would not be in issue.

 

Thanks,

JEL 

 

[Jay Vendetta]

I've used the pyrodex 3f in 38 special with 125 gr bullets, roughly 20 gr by volume and 12 guage 1 oz with 60-80 grains by volume.

 

As will be said alot in this thread I'm sure, clean your guns thoroughly after shooting asap and do so again the next couple days. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Pyrodex is best loaded with bullets with black powder-compatible lube.  I don't recommend it for your 38s.  However, it is suitable for shotgun shells.  Just clean your shotgun well soon after shooting it.  (Ask us how to remove melted plastic if you don't know how.)  Triple Seven FFg is suitable for your 38s and shotgun shells.  It meters well and is gentle on steel surfaces.  I load Triple Seven in both my wife's and my 38s for rifles.  Her shotgun shells are loaded with a light load of Triple Seven.  Here is Hodgdon's reference data.

 

Degrease your guns and lube with a black powder-compatible lubricant before your match.  I store shotgun shells loaded with Pyrodex in a dry box with a desiccant pack until the day of use.  (See Garrison Joe's post about attracting moisture.)

[Dantankerous]

777 FFg in 12 gauge has been one of my loads. Exciting, but very controlable.

 

I've used 777 FFg in 45 Colt and it's a tad warmer than I'd like. OK in the rifle, but in the handgun was slower on follow up shots due to more muzzle flip/recoil.

 

I now prefer APP for a BP sub but I love real BP mostest.

 

 

[Krazy Kajun]

Sent you a PM.

 

Kajun

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

For shotgun cleaning I remove the barrels. I have rubber stoppers that plug the barrels. Pour in warm water with a little Ballistol (some use liquid Dawn, YMMV) and set it aside while you clean other guns.

 

Pull the stoppers out and two big black plastic snots run out of the barrel. (Supposed to be good plant fertilizer)

Paper towel pushed down barrels to get remaining crud, then a light coating of Ballistol.

[Preacherman]

I'm sure that Scarlet has APP. PM sent

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I avoid Pyrodex in ANY cartridge or even muzzle loading uses.  It attracts moisture from the air to make loads squibby, then the fouling attracts moisture from the air after firing to almost immediately begin to rust the steel in your firearms.

 

777 is way too hot for Cowboy loads.   Great for muzzle loader hunting, though.

 

APP is much more suited to Cowboy shooting!   Bullets do not even need a special BP compatible lube.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Fordyce Beals]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

777 is way too hot for Cowboy loads.  

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Don't tell my wife, Leia Tombstone that.  In LFC that's all she has ever shot!  LOL

 

Fordyce

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

For my 38s, I was long time user of Cowboy Goex, then with the sell of my source, Black Dawge,  I eventually  switched to 777.  I have since used  777-2f for many years , and yes with coated bullets.  I find it accurate with many weight bullets from 105 to 147s.  Use 777-3f in shotgun loads.

[Chantry]

2F Triple 777 is what I use with 147 gr .38 Special and both 200gr & 240gr in  .44 magnum.  Works fine with both.

 

I've tried Pyrodex in the past and  found it caused rust very quickly.  Since you live in a humid climate, I expect you will have the same results

[John E. Law]

Thanks for all of the info.

 

I am going to try to find some of the APP, but If all I can get is the  Pyrodex or 777 I guess I'll go with one of those. All of my guns are cerakoted so I don't think I will have a huge rust issue as long as I get them cleaned fairly quickly.

 

JEL

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Scarlett sells APP but doesn't ship it.  But the APP guy she gets it from seems to always have it and he ships.  There may be a minimum, though.  Natchez carries Shooter's World Multi-Black which is the same thing.  They are out now but have it in stock quite often, and you can buy by the pound.  Just order primers and powder at the same time to save on hazmat and shipping.  BTW, Natchez has Federal Small Pistol primers right now.

[Three Foot Johnson]

6 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

For shotgun cleaning I remove the barrels. I have rubber stoppers that plug the barrels. Pour in warm water with a little Ballistol (some use liquid Dawn, YMMV) and set it aside while you clean other guns.

 

Pull the stoppers out and two big black plastic snots run out of the barrel. (Supposed to be good plant fertilizer)

I've never experimented with such a thing for fertilizer, but a mixture of alkaline salt, oleic acid, alcohol, benzyl acetate, sulfuric acid (in the case of real BP) and semi-dissolved plastic, plus whatever chemicals are in Dawn dish soap doesn't sound like a very good plant food. 

[Slapshot]

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Scarlett sells APP but doesn't ship it.  But the APP guy she gets it from seems to always have it and he ships.  There may be a minimum, though.  Natchez carries Shooter's World Multi-Black which is the same thing.  They are out now but have it in stock quite often, and you can buy by the pound.  Just order primers and powder at the same time to save on hazmat and shipping.  BTW, Natchez has Federal Small Pistol primers right now.

I ordered a case from Scarlett and she had it shipped to my house.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Pyrodex sucks for all applications. 
777 3f (preferred) or 2f is the easy button for bp cartridge categories. 
no special bullets needed. 
no fillers required. An air space isn’t an issue. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

I really stocked up on Alliant Black MZ when Sportsman's Warehouse had it for $9.99/pound, plus another 48 pounds of Goex Pinnacle when it was discontinued. Common sense finally set in, and I realized there was no way I'd ever use it all up. I've since sold at least 74 pounds to one pard, a dozen or more to another, and another pound or two at a time to various others ($10/pound - I made a penny on each can ), so at least a hundred pounds now, and I've still got all I'll ever need.  Even spread out among several outbuildings, it makes a fella nervous to have that much around.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Why not use real BP?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

4 hours ago, John E. Law said:

All of my guns are cerakoted so I don't think I will have a huge rust issue

 

Action internals and barrel bores DO NOT get coated when modern coatings are applied.

 

Those are where BP subs induced corrosion occurs most often, and has the most detrimental effect. 

 

good luck, GJ

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

IMO,  APP is preferable if you're going with the substitute, it has a milder recoil compared to Triple 7.  T7 has a little bit more of a snap than APP but manageable.  However if  Pyrodex and 777 is readily available to you, I'll pick T7.   I have use subs before, but personally I prefer shooting real BP.  Good luck, have fun and get smoking.  

[Sedalia Dave]

5 hours ago, John E. Law said:

Thanks for all of the info.

 

I am going to try to find some of the APP, but If all I can get is the  Pyrodex or 777 I guess I'll go with one of those. All of my guns are cerakoted so I don't think I will have a huge rust issue as long as I get them cleaned fairly quickly.

 

JEL

 

Pyrodex will rust even cerokoted firearms.  Even when you think they are clean they likely are not.

I have seen guns shot using Pyrodex to show rust in hard to reach places a few days after the first cleaning.  

 

Between the two use the Triple 7

[JackSlade]

If the recoil for 777 fffg in 45lc is too much, use gallery loads with cornmeal and veggie wads.

 

I would use real BP if I didn't hate the sulfur smell so much. I use 777 for everything cowboy related.

[John E. Law]

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Action internals and barrel bores DO NOT get coated when modern coatings are applied.

 

Those are where BP subs induced corrosion occurs most often, and has the most detrimental effect. 

 

good luck, GJ

Actually the internals of my guns ARE cerakoted. I've been an certified applicator for 15 years. When I first started Cerakoting we experamented and did everything on my cowboy guns, inside and out, just to see how long it would hold up. The only things that are not coated are obviously inside the barrels and chambers, the coil springs in all of the guns, and the lifter, toggles, and linkage pins in the 73. Other then that its all costed. Even the inside of the mag tube. There is light wear on the end of the 73 lifter arm, the lever and lifter arm hinge point, the top of the bolt and frame, the cockers on the sxs, on the cylinders and the top of he cylinder latch where they slide and lock together,  and the onside tips of both pistol barrels where they've been drawn from and rubbed on the leather thousands of times. One one the barrel side the other on the ejector housing. The wear in most of the areas I listed isn't even all the way through but in a couple it is. With its ceramic properties, cerakote will polish itself and become self lubracating on friction points. A prefect example is where the bolt runs against the frame,  it's worn, but not through,  it's polished like glass. It's all held up incredibly and surprisingly well.

 

With that said,  I completly understand that you need to clean your guns after shooting BP or substitutes, which I plan to, but this will just be another test for the cerakote. 

 

JEL

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

1 hour ago, John E. Law said:

Actually the internals of my guns ARE cerakoted. I've been an certified applicator for 15 years. When I first started Cerakoting we experamented and did everything on my cowboy guns, inside and out, just to see how long it would hold up. The only things that are not coated are obviously inside the barrels and chambers, the coil springs in all of the guns, and the lifter, toggles, and linkage pins in the 73. Other then that its all costed. Even the inside of the mag tube. There is light wear on the end of the 73 lifter arm, the lever and lifter arm hinge point, the top of the bolt and frame, the cockers on the sxs, on the cylinders and the top of he cylinder latch where they slide and lock together,  and the onside tips of both pistol barrels where they've been drawn from and rubbed on the leather thousands of times. One one the barrel side the other on the ejector housing. The wear in most of the areas I listed isn't even all the way through but in a couple it is. With its ceramic properties, cerakote will polish itself and become self lubracating on friction points. A prefect example is where the bolt runs against the frame,  it's worn, but not through,  it's polished like glass. It's all held up incredibly and surprisingly well.

 

With that said,  I completly understand that you need to clean your guns after shooting BP or substitutes, which I plan to, but this will just be another test for the cerakote. 

 

JEL

That's a cool story. Always wondered about coatings in the BP/APP area. Thanks for sharing.

 

What about Titanium Nitride? I know some AR-15 folks have their bolts and other internals coated. Always wondered how a TiN coating would hold up.

[Jay Vendetta]

1 hour ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

That's a cool story. Always wondered about coatings in the BP/APP area. Thanks for sharing.

 

What about Titanium Nitride? I know some AR-15 folks have their bolts and other internals coated. Always wondered how a TiN coating would hold up.

I had my cylinder, hammer and trigger all TiN coated and I shot them with pyrodex no issues to report. The coating was done beginning of last year and those parts look the same now as they did then.

[Doc Altman SASS#74468]

Looks cool, Jay!!

[Snakebite]

I've always liked 777. It's more powerful than other BP subs.  Building 12 ga shotgun loads using half of what other subs require is a snap. I've used reduced charges with no problems, and it cleans up easily. I've never cared much for Pyrodex... other than using one of their 30gn pellets in 45-70 for Plainsman events. Most of the other LEAGAL products are virtually the same as citrus based APP. They are all OK. Goex Cowboy was Great... too bad it's no longer around. 

[Waimea]

Pyro will rust any metal surface in the same room.

Avoid at all costs.

T7 is snappy.

If you're using 180gr bullet in a .38 you're not caring much about recoil.

Go with T7.

I could prolly dig out a partially used can of T7 that you can try before you buy.

I think I GAVE AWAY the last of the Pyrodex I had. Good riddance.

[Eyesa Horg]

Pyrodex will make your gun look like a 73 Chevy pickup, rotted to the door handle.

[John E. Law]

4 hours ago, Jay Vendetta said:

I had my cylinder, hammer and trigger all TiN coated and I shot them with pyrodex no issues to report. The coating was done beginning of last year and those parts look the same now as they did then.

That looks awesome!

 

JEL

[Jay Vendetta]

5 hours ago, Doc Altman SASS#74468 said:

Looks cool, Jay!!

 

27 minutes ago, John E. Law said:

That looks awesome!

 

JEL

Appreciate it both of you, they came out great. I love the two tone look.

[Griff]

Does your ceramic coating extend to the end of the barrel threads where they're exposed?  Are you springs also cerakoted?  The Pyrodex forms an acid that will certainly test the ability of cerakote to withstand its onslaught!  While I wish you all the luck in the world, given how aggressively it rusts steel, it wouldn't surprise me if it eats of cerakote like candy.  Remember, it's very hydroscopic, and leaves a residue that doesn't clean off with one or two cleanings, minimum I found was it took three cleanings before my barrels started to be free of flash rust a day after the last cleaning.  I don't mean consecutive cleanings, (one right after another)... I'm talking about cleaning until you think it's sparkling, lube it up and put it up for storage, and take out the next day only to find flash rust in the barrel. Do it again, and check the second day, more flash rust... finally the third time you scrub the gun, it comes up without flash rust a day later.  Living in a humid climate makes it even more aggressive.  I cannot recommend against its use more strongly.  Let me know if you want some APP to try.

[John E. Law]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Does your ceramic coating extend to the end of the barrel threads where they're exposed?  Are you springs also cerakoted?  The Pyrodex forms an acid that will certainly test the ability of cerakote to withstand its onslaught!  While I wish you all the luck in the world, given how aggressively it rusts steel, it wouldn't surprise me if it eats of cerakote like candy.  Remember, it's very hydroscopic, and leaves a residue that doesn't clean off with one or two cleanings, minimum I found was it took three cleanings before my barrels started to be free of flash rust a day after the last cleaning.  I don't mean consecutive cleanings, (one right after another)... I'm talking about cleaning until you think it's sparkling, lube it up and put it up for storage, and take out the next day only to find flash rust in the barrel. Do it again, and check the second day, more flash rust... finally the third time you scrub the gun, it comes up without flash rust a day later.  Living in a humid climate makes it even more aggressive.  I cannot recommend against its use more strongly.  Let me know if you want some APP to try.

I'm looking for some APP, that seems to be the biggest suggested powder. I don't plan on going to BP, I've never even shot it before, I just wanted to shoot it at the Darkness Falls/Dark Days match in January for fun. As hard as components are to get I figured I'd start looking now and getting a load set up. 

 

As for the cerakote I doubt the corrosives in BP/Substitutes would do anything to the actual treated surfaces for some time let alone eat it like candy. The torture tests they've done on that stuff and the results will shock you. One test they did they left two identical rifles outside in a very salty, humid, climate. One with a factory melonite finish the other was cerakoted.  Within a month, let alone the year, the factory gun was ruined. A year later the cerakoted rifle was cleaned up and was like new. They've done acid testing, abrasives testing, heat and cold testing, and many others, and NOTHING compares to it. It's used on engine blocks and even exhaust headers and it holds up. They now have a piston coat formula for use Inside engines. It's incredible stuff. However, like I said there are parts in my guns that have worn after thousands and thousands of rounds and draws and parts that were not able to be coated like the chambers, inside the barrels, and the coil springs so I still will be cleaning them right away. I have plenty a Ballistol on hand. 

 

Although with all of this scary talk it better be fun because it's losing its appeal.

 

JEL

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

OLG had the best suggestion.  Why use a sub when there isn’t anything wrong with the original?

[Krazy Kajun]

Oh it’s fun….not being able to clearly see your targets after your first shot when you are shooting into the morning sun. It’s also fun that your spotters can’t see the targets either. If you have “honest” spotters you know what they say….”benefit of the doubt….!”

Kajun