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WTC one more time


Kirk James
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Need clarification again.  Rifle is shot at second position.  After nine rounds the shooter sets down the rifle down with the action open, leaving the shooters hands, and moves to pick up the shotgun .  The TO calls the shooter back saying one more and the shooter returns to the rifle without shooting the shotgun and shoots his last shot at the correct target.  WTC?

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28 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

No call.  Rifle string was completed before the next shot was fired.

I see and hear this all the time,  but if like to know where this comes from. The rules are stated below. I get the caviot that it may be corrected but where did it say what conditions. To me between the SHB and RO1 this is a MSV. If I am wrong please tell me where to find this exception. 

 

JEL

 

Shooters Handbook: A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition(s) only
(some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):
- Empty.
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged 
for further use).

 

 

RO1: A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation.

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Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.

SHB p.16

 

UNLESS:

Quote

Staging or discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter's hands).

SHB p.22 - SDQ

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7 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.16

 

UNLESS:

SHB p.22 - SDQ

Thanks PWB

 

I've seen it on the shooters pocket flow card, but couldn't find it in the books. I didn't look in the "all firearms part"

 

JEL

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Note the "in the chamber part".  If the rifle was set down and the round wasn't even partially in the chamber, no call.

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11 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Who's going to know if the round was in the camber or Not ?

 

If the TO didn't see anything, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. 

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We had one at the Georgia state match.  Shot nine from rifle and put it down open with 10th round on carrier. However, he did start shooting next firearm.  I was spotting and could see it was still on carrier.  Then another spotter came up, grabbed the rifle by the stock and tilted it up onto the barrel and proclaimed it’s a SDQ because it’s partially in the chamber.  Well it wasn’t until YOU picked it up and caused it to go into the chamber. They finally gave him a MSV because I saw it before someone else touched it.

 

it does say in the SHB on page 14 “No other person other than the competitor may touch the firearm prior to opening the action to show it clear” in the case the lever was closed, it needs to be the same for everything else except a declared broken firearm. 

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59 minutes ago, Big Rock, SASS #44055 said:

...

it does say in the SHB on page 14 “No other person other than the competitor may touch the firearm prior to opening the action to show it clear” in the case the lever was closed, it needs to be the same for everything else except a declared broken firearm. 

 

Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the TO.

SHB p.16

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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... and it sounds like that other spotter deserves a MDQ for "Unsportsmanlike conduct".

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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11 hours ago, Big Rock, SASS #44055 said:

We had one at the Georgia state match.  Shot nine from rifle and put it down open with 10th round on carrier. However, he did start shooting next firearm.  I was spotting and could see it was still on carrier.  Then another spotter came up, grabbed the rifle by the stock and tilted it up onto the barrel and proclaimed it’s a SDQ because it’s partially in the chamber.  Well it wasn’t until YOU picked it up and caused it to go into the chamber. They finally gave him a MSV because I saw it before someone else touched it.

 

it does say in the SHB on page 14 “No other person other than the competitor may touch the firearm prior to opening the action to show it clear” in the case the lever was closed, it needs to be the same for everything else except a declared broken firearm. 

This is a pet peeve of mine. Do not pick up another shooters guns on the firing line. Shooter, pick up your guns and move to the unloading table. Talk to your pards after you clear your guns, not on the firing line while other shooters are waiting for stage reset so they can shoot.

 

In this situation, I would have made a "No Call" because someone else touched the gun "tainting" the evidence.

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Please excuse me if this had been clarified but I seem to have missed it. If the rifle has a round left in it, on the carrier, and it leaves the shooter hands is it a MSV immediately or only if they shoot another gun after? 

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3 minutes ago, Jay Vendetta said:

If the rifle has a round left in it, on the carrier, and it leaves the shooter hands is it a MSV immediately or only if they shoot another gun after? 

 

On 7/25/2022 at 2:27 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:
Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.

SHB p.16

 

If the round is only on the carrier the situation can still be corrected (and the MSV avoided) prior to shooting the next gun.

But if the round or part of it is in the chamber the DQ applies instantly after the rifle leaves the shooter's hands.

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Shooter fires 9 rounds out of a 10 round rifle stage, with no matter what rifle type he is shooting, 1860, 1866, 1873, Marlin or Winchester 1894, 1892 Winchester or clone, Henry Big Boy,  Colt pump or clone, etc., can anyone, whether TO or spotters or other members of the posse, 100% tell if when the shooter laid the rifle down there was a round partly in the chamber?   Before firing first round of next firearm shooter goes back and fires 10th round, it's a NO CALL!

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15 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Shooter fires 9 rounds out of a 10 round rifle stage, with no matter what rifle type he is shooting, 1860, 1866, 1873, Marlin or Winchester 1894, 1892 Winchester or clone, Henry Big Boy,  Colt pump or clone, etc., can anyone, whether TO or spotters or other members of the posse, 100% tell if when the shooter laid the rifle down there was a round partly in the chamber?   Before firing first round of next firearm shooter goes back and fires 10th round, it's a NO CALL!

 

If any of the "line ROs" happens to look into the open action of the restaged rifle and observes any part of an unfired round in the chamber, the SDQ should be assessed immediately.

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Hell's Comin-I always enjoy shooting with you.  All you have to do is watch and you pick up a better way to shoot.  If there was no WTC what would you think about on the 2 hr ride home.  This should have been a no call.  

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Excuse me PWB, but what is a "line RO"?  Never in 26 years of SASS have I heard the term "line RO".  Have taken RO 1 and RO II twice, and been an RO for all these years at State, Regional, and National events, never heard this "line RO" term used.  In the "heat of battle" the RO is watching the shooter " safely" move thru the stage and doesn't have time to stop and look at the shooter's rifle's action when the shooter puts his rifle down horizontally or vertically to see if there is a live round "partly" in the chamber before following the shooter to his next firearm.  Nor are the spotters close enough to observe this.  They are trying to stay up with the shooter and count hits and misses and possible safeties and procedurals.   Only after the shooter finishes the stage, and before he/she, AND ONLY HE/SHE, picks up his/her long guns,  can a TO or spotter observe a possible "partly" live round in the chamber.

Where under the above circumstances can an official call for anything other than "NO CALL"?

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Not PWB, but my understanding is that Line ROs are the TO, Spotters & Scorekeeper.  

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Pardon my use of an "unofficially recognized" term In referring to the Range Officers that are on the stage accompanying the active shooter during the stage engagement (Timer Operator and the three Spotters) to differentiate them from the other ROs and posse members. 

 

The OP mentioned that the TO "calls the shooter back" while he (the shooter) was moving toward the shotgun position.

The TO would most likely be in a position to LOOK at the rifle to confirm where the unfired 10th round was if he remained at the rifle position waiting for the shooter to come back and complete the shooting string. 

 

If you are unable to visualize that scenario (or a spotter close enough to make that observation) I can't add anything further to explain it ....

Except this:

Quote

Watch the Gun – As a TO, to make exact calls and anticipate the shooter’s next move, watch the gun! By looking at the gun, you can identify target engagement, squib loads, warn the shooter if he or she is getting close to breaking the 170°, and stop the shooter if there is a problem.

RO1 p.9

 

and this:

Quote

- The TO watches the shooter – and the shooters guns- for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures.

RO1 p.24

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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