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5 minutes ago, Caladisi kid said:

- The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction at all times (generally “up” and slightly downrange).

- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control.

The 170° Rule The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is always in effect.

- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.

SHB page 20-21

:)

 

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Screenshot_20220720-224423_Drive.thumb.jpg.704d7d60c7fa37f9f9e4388e2b1c528c.jpg

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Must be a pain moving gun carts and not sweeping anyone there.

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48 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I missed the post where this was said. Someone must have deleted it.

 

I think he means that if you turn your back to the firing line as you leave, the only way to keep the muzzle downrange is to have it pointed slightly behind you, which got the shooter the SDQ.  If he held it 5 degrees in front of him, he'd have it angled Up range, in the general direction of spectators.

 

It seems to me that the safest direction (with brass pickers behind you and spectators in front of you) is to hold the muzzle straight up.

 

I usually carry mine straight up or 5 degrees in the direction I'm walking, so I can see and know at all times where it's pointed.  I hope that's correct;

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11 minutes ago, Caladisi kid said:

........... between, before, during, and after shooting a stage

 

:)

 

If the 170 rule apples to "BETWEEN" stages, then ALL of us would earn 5 SGQ's a match for the manner in which we transport our longguns

in our carts.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

If the 170 rule apples to "BETWEEN" stages, then ALL of us would earn 5 SGQ's a match for the manner in which we transport our longguns

in our carts.

 

..........Widder

 

Not to mention pistols in canted holsters pointing a little up range when your back is down range going to the ULT.

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Pale Wolf gave his answer and people still want to argue???   Crazy, they ask for rules committee, then others say don't care and still will penalize????? 

 

To and from the ULT/LT DOES NOT APPLY!!!!!  use common sense!!!      NO ONE IS IN DANGER OR GETTING "SWEPT" IF A MUZZLE is 10deg off of vertical when moving to and from the ULT/LT.    Every double shooter who shoots a stage that has forward movement from a downrange point back to the ULT is usually carrying their shotgun with some slight forward/up-range angle.   That is why COMMON SENSE is to be used. 

 

 

SHOULD HAVE BEEN,  NO CALL  

Edited by Toranado, SASS # 58447
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1 minute ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

I think he means that if you turn your back to the firing line as you leave, the only way to keep the muzzle downrange is to have it pointed slightly behind you, which got the shooter the SDQ.  If he held it 5 degrees in front of him, he'd have it angled Up range, in the general direction of spectators.

 

It seems to me that the safest direction (with brass pickers behind you and spectators in front of you) is to hold the muzzle straight up.

 

I usually carry mine straight up or 5 degrees in the direction I'm walking, so I can see and know at all times where it's pointed.  I hope that's correct;

I think more than likely he didn't see the part of my post where I said EVERYBODY was between me and the stage.

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The day I have my long guns with the pointy end vertically pointing up in the air 15° off 90°, POINTING AT NO ONE and get a MDQ for it.............Bulls%#&.

 

It'd be my last day in SASS.

 

What a chicken%*$# call.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cypress Sun
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11 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

The day I have my long guns with the pointy end vertically pointing up in the air 15° off 90°, POINTING AT NO ONE and get a MDQ for it.............Bulls%#&.

 

I'd be my last day in SASS.

 

What a chicken%*$# call.

 

 

 

 

Look out Sun, I'm calling it on our next match!! 

 

And since you ALWAYS shoot first I'll get you before you can get me!!:D

 

JEL

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Here's prime example from some video that I snapshotted from Youtube.   Shooter is moving off the line to UL.   SXS muzzle is pointed up but slightly "Up-range".   

 

Some of you want to call this a SDQ??????????   This happens EVERY shoot.

 

image.thumb.png.04d541b7e1e7c8000de8221038796cd2.png

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17 minutes ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

Here's prime example from some video that I snapshotted from Youtube.   Shooter is moving off the line to UL.   SXS muzzle is pointed up but slightly "Up-range".   

 

Some of you want to call this a SDQ??????????   This happens EVERY shoot.

 

image.thumb.png.04d541b7e1e7c8000de8221038796cd2.png

OMG:o how unsafe!! I think he's in my category so he should get a MDQ immediately!!:blink:

 

JEL

 

In reality this is exactly how I have carried my guns to and from the line since I started. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Was the person that called the penalty in the same category? 
This is the most absurd call I’ve heard of. 

Funny you should bring that up!

Last month someone tried to accuse me of this very offense! Someone on this thread. In my category. Who had previously accused me of using an illegal rig for B Western. I proved to the posse marshal that wasn’t true. Then at a later stage accused me of breaking the 170. After the shooting string was over. As I was turning with 97 in hand pointed up to go get my rifle.

I didn’t know what the hell he was talking about!!!

I’ve been shooting 25 years, 6 EOTs, uncountable annuals, and no one has EVER accused me of being unsafe, or breaking the 180!!!

Just a coincidence I’m SURE, that this guy knew I was going to win BW instead of him! (He thought he had it wrapped up attending this match). 
So, interesting you should bring that up…

Edited by Tell Sackett SASS 18436
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30 minutes ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

Funny you should bring that up!

Last month someone tried to accuse me of this very offense! Someone on this thread. In my category. Who had previously accused me of using an illegal rig for B Western. I proved to the posse marshal that wasn’t true. Then at a later stage accused me of breaking the 170. After the shooting string was over. As I was turning with 97 in hand pointed up to go get my rifle.

I didn’t know what the hell he was talking about!!!

I’ve been shooting 25 years, 6 EOTs, uncountable annuals, and no one has EVER accused me of being unsafe, or breaking the 180!!!

Just a coincidence I’m SURE, that this guy knew I was going to win BW instead of him! (He thought he had it wrapped up attending this match). 
So, interesting you should bring that up…

As T-Bone Dooley said in one of his classes years ago at the US Open, "no one cares what you shoot or what you wear, until you beat them"!!

 

Randy

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20 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

READ THIS:

170 DEGREE RULE

 

BTW..."STRAIGHT UP" is actually in violation of the 170.

 

Sounds like a *********** call to me.

 

 

 

Yep, I read it.  Yep, I'm still confused.  It seems like the "Common Sense" clause should have covered it, but it also seems PWB is saying it was the correct call.  Even tho it was a "***************** call".  :D

 

This is exactly why I usually avoid reading any of the "What's the call?" threads.  I figure if I screw up somebody will call me on it.  If they're right, I deserve it.  If they're wrong, BFD.  Life goes on.  I've already wasted too much time trying to figure this one out.

 

Angus

20 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

READ THIS:

170 DEGREE RULE

 

BTW..."STRAIGHT UP" is actually in violation of the 170.

 

Sounds like a *********** call to me.

 

 

 

Yep, I read it.  Yep, I'm still confused.  It seems like the "Common Sense" clause should have covered it, but it also seems PWB is saying it was the correct call.  Even tho it was a "***************** call".  :D

 

This is exactly why I usually avoid reading any of the "What's the call?" threads.  I figure if I screw up somebody will call me on it.  If they're right, I deserve it.  If they're wrong, BFD.  Life goes on.  I've already wasted too much time trying to figure this one out.

 

Angus

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I think its time for Branchwater Jack and his twin to give us a video on exactly what is acceptable within the rules

so that SOME of you will stop trying to dish out unwarranted penalties.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

Here's prime example from some video that I snapshotted from Youtube.   Shooter is moving off the line to UL.   SXS muzzle is pointed up but slightly "Up-range".   

 

Some of you want to call this a SDQ??????????   This happens EVERY shoot.

 

image.thumb.png.04d541b7e1e7c8000de8221038796cd2.png

Probably wouldn’t be sdq the first time at clubs where I shoot. But there’d be a chorus of “watch yer muzzle”. 

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28 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

 

Yep, I read it.  Yep, I'm still confused.  It seems like the "Common Sense" clause should have covered it, but it also seems PWB is saying it was the correct call.  Even tho it was a "***************** call".  :D

 

 

 

I don't see anywhere PWB said it was the correct call.     His document says "Common Sense should be used to determine the safest direction to point muzzles when moving...from the stage to the ULT....the PRIMARY consideration is to avoid SWEEPING anyone with the muzzle of ANY firearm at ANY time"

 

That reads to me like he doesn't agree with the call.  

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Dead Horse time:

 

My problem is that the SHB says that the 170 rule by definition is down range.  And it says it's always in effect.  To me, "always" means from the time I take it out of the truck to when I put it back in.

 

We need some re-wording or clarification to either say that a) it applies only in the course of fire, b) change the definition to not specifically state down range, or c) some explanation of the situations where common sense safety considerations over-ride the 170.

 

The document PWB posted is good, but I didn't see that coming directly from the SHB.

 

I'm not saying changing the rule from how it's (usually) enforced.  I'm saying the SHB has conflicting information between the definition of the 170 rule and the statement that guns must always be pointed in a safe direction.

image.png.4d248ba31007269c3d7803b6b6aa9b88.png

 

Edited by Diamond Jake
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57 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

...

We need some re-wording or clarification to either say that a) it applies only in the course of fire, b) change the definition to not specifically state down range, or c) some explanation of the situations where common sense safety considerations over-ride the 170.

 

The document PWB posted is good, but I didn't see that coming directly from the SHB.

...

 

The referenced document IS a clarification accessible from the SASS SHOOTERS HANDBOOK page under the "Rule Clarification Archives" link.

It includes some of the "situations where common sense considerations over-ride the 170" which was the reason it was initially written & posted ELEVEN YEARS AGO after being approved by the Range Operations Committee (ROC).

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