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How would you call this?

This past weekend at a regional shoot, a shooter with a Henry rifle after completing his stage caried the rifle back to the unloading table straight up however as he was walking to the unloading table the gun was tilted about 10 degrees back. The shooter was then issued a stage DQ for breaking the 170. Keep in mind that he was shooting black powder which makes it very difficult to carry the gun by holding the barrel which after firing 10 rounds of black powder gets very hot. So, in order not to burn his hands he caried the gun by holding the stock. Try to hold a long barrel rifle straight up by just holding the stock. Would this justify a stage DQ

Lefty

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My personal opinion and not necessarily the rules, I would not of had an issue. What's the difference of 10 deg. back or 10 deg. forward? Lots of folks carry with a slight forward tilt it seems.

 

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Otto
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READ THIS:

170 DEGREE RULE

 

BTW..."STRAIGHT UP" is actually in violation of the 170.

 

Sounds like a *********** call to me.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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AFTER the stage is completed...

WITH action open...

Barrel/ muzzle pointed STRAIGHT upwards (straight upwards is 10 degrees past the 170) while moving to the unloading table...

 

The person who assigned the penalty is absolutely "correct" - they also need to find some bran to clear up their $hi++y attitude.

 

Penalties exist to keep the competition level AND to discourage unsafe behaviors.

Not to simply provide opportunities for petty people to play "gotcha".

 

Penalty application is not a universal process and EVERY instance MAY not warrant the same outcome.

Whaaaaat?  How is that fair?

 

We talk so much about "cowboy attitude", "Spirit of the game" and "Dont be a harda$$" - fair isn't just the blind application of words; fair and more importantly RIGHT means making the correct call under the correct circumstances.

 

ASSUMING the op is accurately describing the incident...  And the barrel NEVER passed beyond STRAIGHT up (never pointed rearward even by one degree?)

 

If I'm the TO - I'm not assigning the penalty.  

Dont like it - go to the match director and argue your ticky tack call.

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"COMMON SENSE should be used to determine the safest direction to point muzzles when moving from the LT to the stage & from the stage to the ULT. UP has already been determined to be considered acceptable. The PRIMARY consideration is to avoid SWEEPING anyone with the muzzle of ANY firearm at ANY time."

 

If all is as originally posted, then "By the book" this may have been a correct call... but they sorta left out the "COMMON SENSE" and "PRIMARY consideration" part. 

Edited by McCandless
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What is the 170 when you are exiting the firing line and the TO,  spotters, brass pickers and target resetters are moving in to ready the stage for the next shooter. People are to my left, right, front and back. My pistols are holstered and my long gun actions are open. 

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18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

AFTER the stage is completed...

WITH action open...

Barrel/ muzzle pointed STRAIGHT upwards (straight upwards is 10 degrees past the 170) while moving to the unloading table...

 

ASSUMING the op is accurately describing the incident...  And the barrel NEVER passed beyond STRAIGHT up (never pointed rearward even by one degree?)

 

That's not what the OP stated.

 

Quote

"...after completing his stage caried the rifle back to the unloading table straight up however as he was walking to the unloading table the gun was tilted about 10 degrees back. The shooter was then issued a stage DQ for breaking the 170."


 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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7 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

What is the 170 when you are exiting the firing line and the TO,  spotters, brass pickers and target resetters are moving in to ready the stage for the next shooter. People are to my left, right, front and back. My pistols are holstered and my long gun actions are open. 

 

Please READ the referenced document.

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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If it's not carried up and slightly down range, unless the bay configuration and stage set up preclude, it's a SDQ.

If the muzzle is pointed uprange,  no matter the configuration, it's a SDQ.

As for it being a black powder shooter, the rifle isn't last so that argument is moot at best.

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3 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

If it's not carried up and slightly down range, unless the bay configuration and stage set up preclude, it's a SDQ.

If the muzzle is pointed uprange,  no matter the configuration, it's a SDQ.

As for it being a black powder shooter, the rifle isn't last so that argument is moot at best.

 

Please READ the referenced document.

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That's not what the OP stated.

 

I was reading that as 10 degrees back from the 170 meaning 180 degrees straight up and down.  

IF the op is saying the shooter was ALREADY at 180 straight up and down and THEN tipped an ADDITIONAL 10 degrees rearward - then Yes a penalty is certainly warranted.

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1 minute ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

If it's not carried up and slightly down range, unless the bay configuration and stage set up preclude, it's a SDQ.

If the muzzle is pointed uprange,  no matter the configuration, it's a SDQ.

As for it being a black powder shooter, the rifle isn't last so that argument is moot at best.

Have you ever shot BP?

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PWB is correct - I apparently have a reading comprehension problem today.

 

Up range muzzle direction is a penalty and should be called EVERY time.

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2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Have you ever shot BP?

For years and years and years. My statement stands. 

The rifle isn't last, it cools down a bit while shooting, either pistols for 10 or shotgun for 4+.

Also, I've never carried my rifle from the stage to the ULT by the barrel, I hold it at the grip with my fingers between the lever and the trigger. Balance is better, control is better, weight is distributed better.

 

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15 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Have you ever shot BP?

 
Out of an 1860?  
 

I have!!  After the second stage, you carry the Henry with a glove or a rag if you carry it by the barrel!!  If you carry it by the wrist of the stock, holding it where the lever normally is when closed, it’s not as well balanced but it won’t blister your hand.

 

And NO! It doesn’t cool off in the time it takes to shoot pistols or shotgun, unless you’re REALLY slow!  On a hot day, it may not cool off much at all.

 

By the OP’s description, the SDQ is correct, if a little hard@ss.

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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Boy, I'm glad I don't shoot with some of you guys. If you're calling penalties for walking to the ULT with muzzles up. 

 

JEL

 

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The OP never stated that the muzzle was pointed UPrange...just that it was pointed "back" 10 degrees (which would be AT 170 from straight UP)

 

A lot of assumptions are being made to justify a SDQ here.

 

Y'all feel free to ignore the referenced doc and the rules quoted therein.

 

I'm done here.

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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I'm still confused, and I read the document and the SHB definition of terms.

 

Down range is defined as "180 degrees from the shooter toward the targets of a stage."

 

Sometimes a shooter has to turn his back to the targets in order to go to the UL table.  In that case, tilting the rifle 10 degrees over his shoulder would be downrange, and tilting it towards where he is walking would be up range.

 

In many of our stages there are people all around when you go from the loading/unloading tables to enter the little buildings to shoot from.  and sometimes you have to make a few turns to get there, so your path of travel may or may not be parallel or perpendicular to the shooting targets. I always wondered if straight up isn't the best (safest) option in those cases.

 

So, is the 170 degrees always measured from the shooting position to the targets, or is it in relation to the shooter's body position?

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Please READ the referenced document.

Are any of you even reading this??????

 

By the way, please tell us who made the call so that I can make sure I NEVER shoot with these individuals...ever...

 

Some people suck the fun outta everything...

 

Phantom

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We need to know this:

Is "Back 10 Degrees" up range or down range? The OP never states.

If it's up range, SDQ.

If it's down range No Call.

Those are the choices, period, dot.

 

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Frankly, there are not enough facts present in the OP to make a good call.  What's needed is not "common sense"... because what appears most often is, "sheer stupidity!"  But, if folks practiced using whole lotta "UNCOMMON GOOD SENSE" this type of issue wouldn't keep cropping coming up.  

3 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

We need to know this:

Is "Back 10 Degrees" up range or down range? The OP never states.

If it's up range, SDQ.

If it's down range No Call.

Those are the choices, period, dot.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "...not necessarily."  As pointed out in the referenced document, often other factors present mitigating circumstances that eliminate the hard & fast ruling.  Position and movement of target setters, brass pickers and others sometimes preclude a shooter from complying with the wording of the rule... What's important is, does s/he comply with the spirit of the rule... i.e., was anyone in danger of being swept?  Was s/he in control of the muzzle direction?  Yes?  Good enough.  No Call!

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23 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

We need to know this:

Is "Back 10 Degrees" up range or down range? The OP never states.

If it's up range, SDQ.

If it's down range No Call.

Those are the choices, period, dot.

 

Did you read the "referenced document" link from PWB?

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Did you read the "referenced document" link from PWB?

 

Phantom

still haven't seen the answer to this question.

 

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Did you read the "referenced document" link from PWB?

 

Phantom

Yes

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Am I in the twilight zone or something? Common sense should be used when moving from the LT to the stage and from the stage to the ULT. For instance:

   Shooter has to turn his back on the stage to exit the area. Shooter is facing uprange. Does that mean he has to have his long guns slanted slightly behind him? No. Think about it. Lots of times folks are going downrange to set targets or are picking brass downrange from the shooter. That means slightly downrange is not the best direction. If I'm walking away from the stage in an uprange direction with everyone behind me and my rifle goes 3,4,or 5° uprange away from everybody are you going to SDQ me for using common sense to determine the best direction for my muzzle?

 

Screenshot_20220720-224531_Drive.thumb.jpg.784a22a02305fb5673ba980430b77c2d.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220720-224423_Drive.thumb.jpg.3b5d4f99ff9693693afa03cff09bc020.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Am I in the twilight zone or something? Common sense should be used when moving from the LT to the stage and from the stage to the ULT. For instance:

   Shooter has to turn his back on the stage to exit the area. Shooter is facing uprange. Does that mean he has to have his long guns slanted slightly behind him? No. Think about it. Lots of times folks are going downrange to set targets or are picking brass downrange from the shooter. That means slightly downrange is not the best direction. If I'm walking away from the stage in an uprange direction with everyone behind me and my rifle goes 3,4,or 5° uprange away from everybody are you going to SDQ me for using common sense to determine the best direction for my muzzle?

 

Screenshot_20220720-224531_Drive.thumb.jpg.784a22a02305fb5673ba980430b77c2d.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220720-224423_Drive.thumb.jpg.3b5d4f99ff9693693afa03cff09bc020.jpg

 

Common sense is in short supply. However There are shooters  Among us that are just dying to nail someone for anything.  Wrong color socks,underwear and so on.

  Hells Comin 

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What I've learned from some of the comments.
If it is pointed down range as you got to the stage, it is okay.

If it is pointed down range as you leave the stage it is a DQ.

 

So if a crowd is watching, it is okay to point the gun in their direction as I leave the shooting line.

 

Have I got that right?

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31 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

So if a crowd is watching, it is okay to point the gun in their direction as I leave the shooting line.

I missed the post where this was said. Someone must have deleted it.

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- The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction at all times (generally “up” and slightly downrange).

- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control.

The 170° Rule The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is always in effect.

- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.

SHB page 20-21

:)

Edited by Caladisi kid
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