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Shot shells :smokeless powder after black - weird fouling?


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Howdy Shotgunners especially black powder shooters,

This past weekend I was experimenting with my recalcitrant '87. I thought roll crimped shells would eject more reliably than star crimped (they did). The kicker was that a buddy gave me 4 of his roll crimped BP loads. I needed at least 6 for the stage. I shot the BP loads first and finished with smokeless loads. 

The next day when i went to clean the bore, I found a weird hard grey crust in the bore. It took a stainless tornado brush and copious amounts of Windex to scrape off. After the bore looked bright, oiled patches.

Is mixing black and smokeless a no-no? Has anyone else seen this happen? I plan on learning how to roll crimp some smokeless loads to make that damned '87 work better.

Rev. Chase

 

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I find the barrels of my shotguns need a coat of oil before firing black powder shells loaded with plastic wads.  Otherwise, I get a layer of melted plastic that is difficult to remove just as you described.  The oil seems to keep melted plastic from adhering like paint.  Oiled the plastic pushes out easily after spraying with window cleaner.  I clean my shotguns before switching from smokeless to black powder or back again.

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I suspect that your "BP" loads were loaded with Pyrodex.  I load with Goex and swap between BP & smokeless quite often without any special cleaning between.   (Sometimes intentionally, other times, not so much)!   Just clean with my regular Hot Water rinse & push out the snot from the plastic, dry & oil for storage.

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If plastic: try acetone and dextron 3, 50/50 with tornado brush. Best to mx in a small metal cup. The acetone melts plastic. Do not get on stock as the acetone will remove the finish. I just wet a patch and then push it through with a swab, then tornado, then patch again followed by oil.

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Well it's good to know what happened. In the back of my rapidly failing memory I thought I had heard about problems mixing black and smokeless powder rounds.

 

Hey Griff, I'm absolutely sure that the rounds from my buddy were real black as he is very open about his feelings about black powder being the only suitable cowboy shooting propellant. 

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I never clean the shotgun after smokeless, and no problems following with BP, and I use plastic wads as well.   Not all shotgun bores are equal, though, and some may foul differently.  I think all of my bores are chrome lined, so that doesn't hurt.  Since I lube pistols and rifle with Ballistol, I don't worry about the bores but before shooting BP but I do pull the cylinders and clean the base pins or arbors and relube them with Ballistol.

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5 hours ago, Reverend P. Babcock Chase said:

The next day when i went to clean the bore, I found a weird hard grey crust in the bore. It took a stainless tornado brush and copious amounts of Windex to scrape off. After the bore looked bright, oiled patches.

 

 

Hard grey crust is most likely melted wads from the the BP shotgun loads.  You can spray cleaner down the bore like Simple Green and let its soak, or just blow it all out at the next match with smokeless, which is what I do.

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Never had problem shooting BP (the real one) after smokeless but never the other way around.  It will creat a nasty crud in your barrel.  You can really clean a firearm of those smokeless fouling by firing  a few BP loads then clean those firearms well with non-petroleum base cleaner such as water, windex or Murphy's mix as long as they are not petroleum base solution, smokeless crud comes off easily.  Besides, they are less toxic chemicals.  

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Your mistake was the method you used for cleaning. If you had poured hot water down the bore then pushed a wad of a 1/2 sheet of paper towel down the bore the melted plastic would have come right out. The windex cleaned the BP fouling out but not the plastic snot. The hot water breaks the bond of plastic to metal for easy removal. 

 

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Bull Skinner said:

If you had poured hot water down the bore then pushed a wad of a 1/2 sheet of paper towel down the bore the melted plastic would have come right out.

 

I am not familiar (yet) with BP cleaning. How hot does the water have to be, almost boiling?

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34 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

I am not familiar (yet) with BP cleaning. How hot does the water have to be, almost boiling?

 

I use Hot tap water.  Plug the muzzle with a rubber stopper. Squirt some ballistol into the breech and then fill with hot tap water. Stand in the corner to soak while I clean my other guns. Then I pour the water out remove the stopper and run a  large patch over a 12 gage jag down the barrel from breech to muzzle. This pushes all the fowling and plastic residue out of the barrel. 

If there is some particularly stubborn fowling I remove it with a tornado brush. Finish with another patch with some ballistol on it. 

 

I have mixed smokeless and BP shells many times with no adverse effects. 

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Years ago the Durango Kid blew up a 97 because he didn't clean after shooting Black & going to smokeless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Largo

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10 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I never clean the shotgun after smokeless, and no problems following with BP, and I use plastic wads as well.   Not all shotgun bores are equal, though, and some may foul differently.  I think all of my bores are chrome lined, so that doesn't hurt.  Since I lube pistols and rifle with Ballistol, I don't worry about the bores but before shooting BP but I do pull the cylinders and clean the base pins or arbors and relube them with Ballistol.

In my family we shoot shotguns with and without chrome lining.  When cleaning the chrome lined barrels it is unusual for any plastic to remain after a single pass of a paper towel.  The unlined barrels often need a second spray of window cleaner followed by another pass of the paper towel.

41 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

I am not familiar (yet) with BP cleaning. How hot does the water have to be, almost boiling?

When I used this method I used water so hot I had to handle the shotgun barrel with heavy rubber gloves.  I find the window cleaner method much easier.

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I have never used hot water in the shotgun barrel to clean out the fouling and plastic.  Moosemilk usually or windex with vinegar in the bore, let it sit a few minutes and then shove the paper towel wad through.  Sometimes I have to repeat.  A long time ago I would take the barrels outside and spray the garden hose through them, that got it out quickly.

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32 minutes ago, largo casey #19191 said:

Years ago the Durango Kid blew up a 97 because he didn't clean after shooting Black & going to smokeless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Largo

 

During the same match or did he shoot BP one day not clean the barrels and then shoot smokeless a few days later?

 

Failing to clean out the BP fowling and letting it harden is a good way to blow up a shotgun. Wouldn't matter if the shells were BP, a sub, or smokeless. Allowed to harden the fowling is a barrel obstruction. Doing this in rifles or pistols is just as bad. 

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I remember shooting a few smokeless loads AFTER shooting BP and they seemed to clean the barrel! 

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31 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I remember shooting a few smokeless loads AFTER shooting BP and they seemed to clean the barrel! 

I know a few people who do that at the end of every match.  I tried it but it only got some of the fouling out of the barrel and still needed cleaning so I just skipped it .

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I don't shoot BP often in my SG, but rarely clean it from smokeless shooting. After BP with plastic wads, spray Windex/vinegar down and cork both ends, rotate occasionally while cleaning a pistol then shove a paper towel wad thru. Generally it's all clean. Sometimes a little more Windex on a patch. Finally a light wipe of Eezox in the barrels. Don't let the Windex sit on blueing, it will fade it I'm told.

 

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16 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

I am not familiar (yet) with BP cleaning. How hot does the water have to be, almost boiling?

 

Nope, not boiling water.  Regular hot water from your faucet will do if you're going in that direction.  Personally, Murphy's mix for me (equql parts of peroxide, isopropyl alcohol and Murphy's oil) works for me, then lubed with Ballistol.  

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