The Joys of Annealing

[Tequila Shooter]

I realize there are many pards here who know the benefits of annealing, so this is for anyone who’s been thinking about it and those that may not realize the benefits. 

 

Anyone who has shot with me knows that I shoot full warthog loads of either BP or APP in .45C.  Last week I decided to take both my model 1860 Henry (Uberti) and 1873 (Uberti) down to parade rest and do a thorough cleaning.  Besides at least 2 and sometimes 3 monthlies I’ve also used them in Dark Days, Ides of March, MS State and TN State, including BP side matches and warm up matches, as you can tell they’ve had hundreds of rounds shot.  When I took the side plates off I was greeted with clean well lubricated innards.  There was no sign of blowback, the extractor was reasonably clean, and the lifter arm looked like I just put it in.  Another benefit is no split cases, sure I get one every once in a while, but I’m talking about maybe 1 case in 500 or so. 

 

My normal routine is to anneal all my cases before reloading them.  This may be overkill, some will say you don’t need to anneal that often, but I’m lazy and don’t keep track of how many times I reload a particular case so I just anneal everyone, every time.  Every time you reload a case you work the brass, sizing, flaring the opening, crimping all work the brass.  

 

Unlike steel brass gets harder (more brittle) when you work it, so that last ¼ inch or so can get work hardened after just a couple of reloads.  What annealing does is softens the brass again so it isn’t brittle.  Besides preventing split cases an added benefit is when you fire the round the mouth of the case is able to open which seals the chamber thus preventing blowback.  There is a down side though, annealed cases are harder to get out of a revolver, that ability to open often prevents the empty cases from just falling out of the cylinder.  Not all cases are created equal and not all calibers will see a huge difference, but if you’re tired of split cases or having to clean the the inside of your rifle, you should consider annealing. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Hey TS,  what method do you use to aneal them?

[Slapshot]

15 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Hey TS,  what method do you use to aneal them?

i'm wondering that myself. I tried the spin it on a drill and ruined 3-4 cases. Wouldn't have been to bead had I tried it on more than 3-4cases. 

[Tequila Shooter]

I’m using Annealeez found Here   For .45c. you need the “Super Short Magnum” wheel kit. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks,

 

I'm using a home built unit that is similar.

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

Would the super short magnum wheel kit work for 45 cowboy special as well?

[La Sombra]

Can I anneal 24 gauge brass shells with your machine?

 

La Sombra 

[Tequila Shooter]

6 hours ago, Needle-Nose-Tom said:

Would the super short magnum wheel kit work for 45 cowboy special as well?

 

I don’t think so.  The drawback to this particular machine is the case length, if the case is too short you’d have to put the flame almost on top of the wheel which will melt the wheel.  There are other annealing machines that would work better for CS cases. 

 

 

3 hours ago, La Sombra said:

Can I anneal 24 gauge brass shells with your machine?

 

La Sombra 

 

I don’t think there is a wheel kit for SG shells, but you could ask Annealeez and see if they would make up a set for you. 

[Lunger Dan]

I salt bath anneal...but not as often, maybe every 4-5 reloads on my 45 colt.

 

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I use an Annealing Made Perfect  machine from New Zealand.  Can't screw up a case and they are all annealed Perfect. 

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I have heard of the salt bath annealing. 

What is it, and how do you get started with it?

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

To the OP
You mentioned that after annealing sometimes the cases are “sticking” in the pistols. I experienced this in a marlin cowboy carbine (45 colt) where the fired rounds required the lever to be worked so hard I thought something must’ve broken. My experiment was to try and reduce blowback. Rounds are 200 grain with 5.8 grain titegroup. PF about 160. Didn’t really change blowback that I could tell. Returned to my non-annealed rounds and the sticking problem went away. Still had blowback. Granted the gun ran quite a bit dirtier but much, much easier to lever. Is that normal? I typically shoot 38’s and the 45 is only used for WB so not much experience there. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Sedalia Dave]

15 hours ago, La Sombra said:

Can I anneal 24 gauge brass shells with your machine?

 

La Sombra 

 

They don't make a set of wheels with a large enough slot to accommodate a 24 gauge shell.  It may be possible to mill out the slot on the standard set of wheels to allow it to anneal 24 ga brass hulls. Without having a picture and some measurements of a set of the standard wheels and the Super Short Magnum wheels I cannot be sure.

 

I do have a annealing machine that should do 24 ga brass hulls.  If you want to talk about it more send me a PM with your number and we can talk about it.

[Lunger Dan]

2 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I have heard of the salt bath annealing. 

What is it, and how do you get started with it?

Its basically using a special salt with a high melting temp to dip the case mouth in and anneal...there is a lot of info if you google it.  the price to get into it is minimum-just need the salt and a small lee pot. Now, of course there are "info" wars about this between the anal eeze manufacturers and salt bath annealing kits sellers...
Works for me is my experience.

[La Sombra]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

They don't make a set of wheels with a large enough slot to accommodate a 24 gauge shell.  It may be possible to mill out the slot on the standard set of wheels to allow it to anneal 24 ga brass hulls. Without having a picture and some measurements of a set of the standard wheels and the Super Short Magnum wheels I cannot be sure.

 

I do have a annealing machine that should do 24 ga brass hulls.  If you want to talk about it more send me a PM with your number and we can talk about it.

Thanks Dave!

So I just purchased from @Dusty Morningwooda Martini-Henry in 577/450. The brass is made by reforming the 24 Gauge shells. Needless to say that the reforming from .624ish to .450ish requires an annealed neck. I'll let you know where I'm going soon on reforming this brass.

 

La Sombra

[Sedalia Dave]

36 minutes ago, La Sombra said:

Thanks Dave!

So I just purchased from @Dusty Morningwooda Martini-Henry in 577/450. The brass is made by reforming the 24 Gauge shells. Needless to say that the reforming from .624ish to .450ish requires an annealed neck. I'll let you know where I'm going soon on reforming this brass.

 

La Sombra

 

Sounds good.  BTW TS has my number.

[Tequila Shooter]

3 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

To the OP
You mentioned that after annealing sometimes the cases are “sticking” in the pistols. I experienced this in a marlin cowboy carbine (45 colt) where the fired rounds required the lever to be worked so hard I thought something must’ve broken. My experiment was to try and reduce blowback. Rounds are 200 grain with 5.8 grain titegroup. PF about 160. Didn’t really change blowback that I could tell. Returned to my non-annealed rounds and the sticking problem went away. Still had blowback. Granted the gun ran quite a bit dirtier but much, much easier to lever. Is that normal? I typically shoot 38’s and the 45 is only used for WB so not much experience there. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

 

The issue with any .45c brass is that it’s a thick straight wall case, as opposed to a bottle neck case i.e. 44-40.  Since the brass is as thick at the mouth as the rest of the case it doesn’t open easily when it’s shot, the annealing helps by keeping the brass soft thereby allowing the mouth to open.  While this works very well with a rifle this causes the “sticking” in a revolver.  For me the sticking has never been a problem, it just requires using the ejector rod.  

 

I’m sorry I can’t address your specific issue with your Marlin, I just don’t have the experience with that powder in a .45c.  If you still want to try I can give you 2 options, a). Send me some cases and I’ll send you back annealed ones or b). Try annealing them again but use Tempilaq to make sure your getting to the correct temperature. 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

3 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

The issue with any .45c brass is that it’s a thick straight wall case, as opposed to a bottle neck case i.e. 44-40.  Since the brass is as thick at the mouth as the rest of the case it doesn’t open easily when it’s shot, the annealing helps by keeping the brass soft thereby allowing the mouth to open.  While this works very well with a rifle this causes the “sticking” in a revolver.  For me the sticking has never been a problem, it just requires using the ejector rod.  

 

I’m sorry I can’t address your specific issue with your Marlin, I just don’t have the experience with that powder in a .45c.  If you still want to try I can give you 2 options, a). Send me some cases and I’ll send you back annealed ones or b). Try annealing them again but use Tempilaq to make sure your getting to the correct temperature. 

Thanks for your kind offer. 
the problem cases were annealed for me by a long time BP long range shooter. They were only used in the marlin for WB. It was somewhat frustrating that the blowback didn’t seem to be reduced and it took significant effort to get the fired cases out of the chamber. My original loads came in and out easily enough but blowback was something fierce. I will keep looking for a solution, I know I could sell the marlin and get something else but I like that gun. 

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Matthew Duncan]

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

I ordered one to try out, came today. The 45cs really gets worked over so I figured I'd see how it does. The extra wheel set is too wide. I'm going to cut it down and see if it will work. 

[Tequila Shooter]

@Needle-Nose-Tom if it’s still getting hot here’s a couple of things you can try: get the magnum short wheel kit, also on eBay you can get a thermal kit eBay

 

Let us know how it works out. 

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

@Needle-Nose-Tom if it’s still getting hot here’s a couple of things you can try: get the magnum short wheel kit, also on eBay you can get a thermal kit eBay

 

Let us know how it works out. 

Will do. I have the next gen version that heats from the other side so it has a bit more give to angle it. I'll get out soon and see what happens. Thanks for the links. 

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

Well it hold the brass good without dropping and cycles well so thats a good 1st step. I need to pick up some fuel and see how the angle is but I think it has enough room. 

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I would like to get started Annealing. Don't know where to start.

[Orient Express]

You don't need much to get started. This is what I use for my rifle cases. All you need to do is measure how many seconds you turn the lazy susan to get the brass a cherry red colour.

 

[Tequila Shooter]

7 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I would like to get started Annealing. Don't know where to start.

 

When I first started I tried using a drill with a socket, then I built a homemade where I’d flip the cases over and into a pan.  Neither of them worked for me, they did work, but I was the weak link, I got tired of watching a watch and I wanted something that gave me more consistent results.  I looked at some of the machines on the market and for what I was doing (just one caliber) based on price I decided on the Anealeez.  I’d also suggest getting a bottle of Tempilaq when you start it helps with making sure you don’t over or under anneal. 

 

Available on Amazon

[Sedalia Dave]

Annealing brass is easy to do correctly but you can ruin a case doing it. Get the body of the case too hot and it will become too soft and be unsafe to use.  

 

Lots of people do it with drills, torches, and trying to observe the color of the brass. Those methods do work but they are very inexact and will give inconsistent results.

 

Proper annealing is a time vs temperature process. The only true way to know when the proper temperature has been reached is by using Tempilac. 

 

Many people say quenching brass has no effect on the annealing process and as far as the softening of the case mouth that is true. However, it should be done as this prevents the heat from annealing the rest of the case. 

 

Couple of good articles to get you started.

 

The Science of Cartridge Brass Annealing

 

The Art and Science of Annealing

 

If you want to deep dive into metallurgy these guys are the place to start. AMP Annealing  Note that they are selling an annealing machine so some of their research may be biased.

 

BTW there are almost as many old wives tales about annealing as there are about shooting Black Powder.

[Sedalia Dave]

 

Here is the video I used to make the one I have.

 

 

 

I modified mine so that I can do almost any case length. I mounted the feed ramp so that it is adjustable for how far out it sets.

Made inserts that fit inside the drum so that it will do shorter cases without changing the drum.

Put a strip of metal inside the drum so that rimed cases are better supported.

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

6 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

When I first started I tried using a drill with a socket, then I built a homemade where I’d flip the cases over and into a pan.  Neither of them worked for me, they did work, but I was the weak link, I got tired of watching a watch and I wanted something that gave me more consistent results.  I looked at some of the machines on the market and for what I was doing (just one caliber) based on price I decided on the Anealeez.  I’d also suggest getting a bottle of Tempilaq when you start it helps with making sure you don’t over or under anneal. 

 

Available on Amazon

Is this the right temp range? I'm going to order some. There are a few different options. Thanks 

[Tequila Shooter]

1 hour ago, Needle-Nose-Tom said:

Is this the right temp range? I'm going to order some. There are a few different options. Thanks 

 

Brass annealing ranges between 600-800 degrees Fahrenheit, so I’d suggest 700 degree.  I’d also get a bottle of thinner, after you open the Tempilaq it will begin to thicken, by adding a little thinner the second time (and subsequent times) will prolong the life of it.  Here’s a good video that explains a lot. 

 

 

[Tequila Shooter]

@Sedalia Dave you have the mind of an engineer (not choo-choo) and talent to make something out of nothing. 

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Here is the video I used to make the one I have.

 

 

 

I modified mine so that I can do almost any case length. I mounted the feed ramp so that it is adjustable for how far out it sets.

Made inserts that fit inside the drum so that it will do shorter cases without changing the drum.

Put a strip of metal inside the drum so that rimed cases are better supported.

 

I forgot to point out that I made my drum from a Stainless Steel sauce pan. The cake pan recommended in the video is VERY soft aluminum. It was so soft that it bent just when trying to cut it out.

 

I searched thrift and second hand stores until I found a sauce pan of the right dimensions with a right angle vice rounded transition from the side to the bottom.

[Preacherman]

There is another less expensive method, Anneal-Rite, see below. He recommends 750 degree Tempilaq. I got this one, but haven't used it yet, so I can't report on it.

 

https://cartridgeanneal.com/