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LEGAL ? about an IAC '97


Widder, SASS #59054

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Years back, before I even started using the 97 shotgun, there was some discussion on this Wire about some 97's that were SASS illegal that

had been imported from China.

 

I faintly recall that these 97's were marked '1897'.    They were not 93 models.

 

What was the peculiar thing that made these particular 97's illegal?

 

OR... is my memory wrong.

 

Thanks to any who may be knowledgeable about this.

 

..........Widder

 

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CR,

Thanks for the links.

 

I don't know about the trench gun configuration item.

BUT..... I recently acquired an IAC 97 that has a slightly more open port..... roughly about 1/4 inch at the top.

 

I plan to use it as a home defense shotgun but was curious if this 'slightly larger port' was the problem with those

97's I'm asking about.

 

It IS NOT a 93.   It has "Model 1897" stamped on the barrel.    The 1/4 inch larger port opening appears to be the only

difference than standard 97's.

 

It is possible that this port has been modified and it may not be something the Chinese did?

 

..........Widder

 

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Fast Snuff,

The style listed on that gunbroker site is not the style I'm referring too.

 

I know what a true 93 looks like.   The 97 that I have only has a very slightly larger port,  about 1/4".   No more, no less.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

..........Widder

 

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43 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Fast Snuff,

The style listed on that gunbroker site is not the style I'm referring too.

 

I know what a true 93 looks like.   The 97 that I have only has a very slightly larger port,  about 1/4".   No more, no less.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder I remember what your talking about. They was a dust up a few years ago. I think they were the 09 series. Yes they were a little more open the port went all the way to the the little groove in the top of the receiver. I don’t remember if there was an official ruling. 

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Widder I remember what your talking about. They was a dust up a few years ago. I think they were the 09 series. Yes they were a little more open the port went all the way to the the little groove in the top of the receiver. I don’t remember if there was an official ruling. 

 

Howdy JB.

YES...... this particular 97 is an 09 series.   The port is cut open just about 1/4" higher..............but nothing like a 93 model.

 

And although I'm sure some machinist could probably make a professional looking cut,  this does appear to be factory.

 

Wish I could post pics.

 

EDIT:  I just checked my inventory of all my IAC 97's and found three of the 09 series.   ALL of those 09 series have slightly 

enlarged ports (1/8 - 1/4 inch) compared to all my other IAC models.

They are all marked 'Model 1897'.

 

I've never used any of them in competition.   Actually, 2 of them has had the firing pin removed and only used for dry fire

practice.

 

If all the 09 series have this slightly opened port, are they SASS legal or not.

 

..........Widder

 

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The only reference in the SHB is this, which IIRC, it is to prevent modifying an 1897 port to 1893 or 93/97 dimensions:

 

Quote

- The dimensions of the ejection port on a slide action shotgun may not be altered.

SHB p.36

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WOW.    Thanks PWB.

 

All my 09 series are factory stuff.    Maybe they aren't illegal, atleast in the manner of which the present rule states.

 

I know some folks don't think a slightly larger opening won't affect speed, and it may not.  BUT..... it can effect 'proficiency'.

 

..........Widder

 

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"I've never used any of them in competition".....Widder

 

That's what I would say if I were you!!!

 

This sorta explains my years of frustration.......Tough to beat Widder with the Wideder port!!!!

 

Man I feel better!

 

Red Knee (with the legal port) 

B)

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17 minutes ago, Red Knee said:

 

"I've never used any of them in competition".....Widder

 

That's what I would say if I were you!!!

 

This sorta explains my years of frustration.......Tough to beat Widder with the Wideder port!!!!

 

Man I feel better!

 

Red Knee (with the legal port) 

B)

 

I sure hate to break your heart........ but ALL of my 09 series 97's have never been used, either intentionally or unintentionally, in matches or speed side matches.

And I know you're just joshing with me..... ;)

:D

 

And, all my videos with live shooting demos never used any of the 09 series.   The only videos I used the 09 series is the dry fire practice videos because

those were my 2 shotguns with the firing pins removed YEARS back.   I had Curly Bill remove the firing pins, etc..... just to use for dry fire practice.

 

Actually, and you and I have talked about this, I have had my 97's checked (inspected) about 4 times at big matches.

They've been checked for shells in the mag tube (preloaded) and checked for auto fire when slamming (auto trigger disengagement).

 

And I've even offered to shoot other folks 97 and let them shoot mine.   

 

I have a nice 97 that I might sell which is an 09 series.   And I want to make sure its either legal or not before I sell it to someone who intends to use

it for Cowboy shooting.

 

I really like the SG.  Its smooth and FAST.   And I might just keep it for the house and any Jurassic groundhogs that I might encounter back

on the farm..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hells Comin said:

Red Knee- maybe someone should review those  97 speed videos that he's posted. 

 

 Hells Comin 

 

I wish I had been using one of those with a bigger port on the video where I got the first 5 shots on 5 KD's in 3.22 and my 6th shell hit

the edge of the port entrance and messed up a possible 6 on 6 in about 3.65 or there about.  :o

 

..........Widder

 

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1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I wish I had been using one of those with a bigger port on the video where I got the first 5 shots on 5 KD's in 3.22 and my 6th shell hit

the edge of the port entrance and messed up a possible 6 on 6 in about 3.65 or there about.  :o

 

..........Widder

 

The shell hit the edge of the port cuz you were used to the wider port!

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Widdermatic

Widdermajik

Widder Gunning

Widdermaniacs

 

and now.............   Widderporting.

 

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Just now, Red Knee said:

The shell hit the edge of the port cuz you were used to the wider port!

 

Speed kills.

 

..........Widder

 

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59 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Red Knee said you were a little slow sometimes........ :o

 

..........Widder

 

Now Widder, I cant condone pickin' on Hell's Comin........cuz many years ago at EOT, he gave me quite the compliment, I had just finished shooting a stage and he walked over to me and said "Red Knee, your 97 was world class........he paused for a second as my head was swelling......but the rest of it was Xxxx!!!!

 

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TN,

Thanks for posting the pic.    Now everyone can view exactly what my inquiry is about.

 

The measurements I'm listing was made from the bottom of the port to the top of the port following the arc of the receiver.

These measurement were takin with a tape measure:

 

Left SG:  approximately 1.125"

Right SG:   approx 1.375".  (1/4 inch more opening)

 

..........Widder

 

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18 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Typical Chinese workmanship,  I don't have this problem (I only shoot (ONLY) American made 97's)

 HELLS COMIN 

 

You make a good point.     But I wonder how many of these 09 series 97's are being used with larger ports.

And because they came from the factory, none of them have been altered by the Cowboy shooters using them.

 

To clarify for those who don't know, the usage of "09 series" is because the first 2 digits in the serial number is '09'.

 

Cowboy series start with a prefix of CB.   

 

..........Widder

 

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FWIW...I spot-checked a few of my Winchester '97s (1901-1923 C, D, & E models) and they all had 1.125" ports.

 

IMO (NOT an "official ROC opinion"):
The slightly larger (as manufactured) port dimensions are inconsequential.

The SHB prohibition refers to after-market shooter/gunsmith modification to a factory model shotgun.

 

If y'all INSIST, this can be presented to the ROC for an OFFICIAL ruling. :ph34r:

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PWB,

NO thanks...... I don't want to be the one that request (insist) an official ROC ruling.

 

You've been very helpful.   Again, thanks.    

 

..........Widder

 

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PWB, I don't even have a 97 but I wouldn't bother. Leave em alone.

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I recall this already got an official ok.

How do I remember so long ago?

Bc I had bought one of the 09 models and held my breath while waiting for the Rules Committee ruling.

I had the wider opening and it was pointed out the the gun may be illegal for SASS.

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Confirmed (Thanks, Widder!).

Any perceived advantage to the (slightly) larger external dimensions of the action port opening are offset by the (again, slightly) thicker metal of the action itself.

 

No worries!

 

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learned something new here and appreciate it folks , i did not realize the 93 was different in that way or that china made one that was labeled that way , ive only had real winchesters in my lifetime but i knew that china made a copy , i doubt at this point in life ill ever be looking but perhaps someone i get involved in SASS might be , i can now explain better what they might be looking into ....great thread 

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If I remember correctly those models were supposed to have been an upgrade from the previous models.  They were supposed to have better metal and corrections to the action.

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4 hours ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

If I remember correctly those models were supposed to have been an upgrade from the previous models.  They were supposed to have better metal and corrections to the action.

 

And I think I faintly remember that information also.

 

I'm gonna request that PWB close this thread before it turns into any unrelated topics.

 

Thanks everyone for your input and for PWB's help on this matter.

 

 

..........Widder

 

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