Shotshells: Brass, BP, Fiber

[Bart Slade]

Howdy pards;

 

I suppose this is a pretty niche thing, but I'm working on building my black power shotshell loads, and interested in how any of you that might be doing this are building your loads.

 

I've got two kinds of brass shotshells (both 12 gauge); I've got 50 of the MagTech, and 40 from Rocky Mountain Cartridge.   The RMC's have thicker hulls, so use 209 type primers and 12 gauge components; the MagTech have thin walls, they take large pistol primers and take 11 gauge components.

 

For both I've been using 4.3cc Goex 2Fg + 4.6cc #7.5 birdshot (I forget the weight of each, I have it written down but not handy at the moment).  My build has been BP+nitro-card+1/2" fiber wad+2 overshot cards.   I glue the overshot cards in the MagTech, but have so far found it to be unnecessary with the RMC's.

 

Short story long, my RMC cartridges have not failed me yet, but the MagTechs are only about 80% successful with the knock downs.    

 

I'm guessing I've got a few issues with the MagTechs:  I'm going to experiment with magnum large pistol primers (I don't know that the standards have the umph),  I'm not sure I'm using enough shot, and I don't think the components fit tightly enough into the shell that I'm getting adequate compression.   

 

I also realize that the fiber wad is going to produce an inferior group to a plastic cup - but I'm trying to stick to as 19th century as possible (and honestly don't like cleaning all the plastic goop out of my shotgun after a match).

 

I've got plenty of room in both cartridges that I could nearly double my BP and shot charges (particularly if I reduce to 1/4" wads) but I don't particularly want to be the clown that's out there shooting a shoulder cannon.  Not every week anyway.

 

For reference, I shoot a CZ hammered coach; the Magtech shells are 2 5/8",  the RMC's are 2 3/4".  

[Sedalia Dave]

First thing is pattern your loads. This will tell you where the problem lies.  I suspect your pattern is going to look a lot like a donut. If it does you will have to make adjustments to correct the pattern. Once you have a proper pattern, do the below.

 

Where is the pattern in relationship to your point of aim.  

 

First set up a series of freshly painted SG targets and shoot a sequence of 6 or 8 just like you would in a match. where are your shots hitting the targets? 

 

Second do it on paper and aim at a dot on the paper to see where your pattern lies in relationship to where you are aiming when taking careful aim.

 

Let us know what you discover.

[Bart Slade]

40 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

First thing is pattern your loads. This will tell you where the problem lies.  I suspect your pattern is going to look a lot like a donut. If it does you will have to make adjustments to correct the pattern. Once you have a proper pattern, do the below.

 

Where is the pattern in relationship to your point of aim.  

 

First set up a series of freshly painted SG targets and shoot a sequence of 6 or 8 just like you would in a match. where are your shots hitting the targets? 

 

Second do it on paper and aim at a dot on the paper to see where your pattern lies in relationship to where you are aiming when taking careful aim.

 

Let us know what you discover.

 

Thanks!   Now I just gotta find a place where I can do this (can't do it at my local gun range, and I'm in an urbuan / suburban area)

[The Shoer 27979]

For my brass I started using a shoot cup becausei was having the same issues. Your primers are ok, I also use 10 gauge over powder cards over my shot, no glue necessary 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I agree with Sedalia Dave that you are likely shooting donut patterns.  I have always used plastic shot cups in brass hulls.  In the larger interior magtech hulls (mine are Rem-UMC but same size), the overpowder nitro card makes the seal since the plastic wads are loose inside.  I'm using the red wad with 1 1/8 oz shot.  Powder is slightly less than full 4.3cc (about 58-60gr by weight of FFg).  Modern chrome lined bores clean so easily that the plastic has never been a problem. 

 

I have seen some folks very familiar with shotguns mention that older guns shoot better with fiber wads, but newer styles are better with plastic.  I've never had any older shotguns, but this load is great in Baikals, TTNs, and Liberty II.  I recently decided to try a reduced load since I saw so many people saying that 3/4 oz of shot takes down everything.  Well, I don't know what their targets are like, but I dropped my powder to 45 gr and shot to 3/4 oz and it was a miserable failure!     So I'll stick with what works for me.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

55 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

 

Thanks!   Now I just gotta find a place where I can do this (can't do it at my local gun range, and I'm in an urbuan / suburban area)

If your club paints their shotgun targets, just be first in line at the loading table.  

 

[Tequila Shooter]

Sedalia Dave is right, the problem appears to be the pattern.  Here’s a couple of things to think about, if you’re using a Stoeger SG you can change the chokes, that’ll tighten up the pattern some.  Second, if you’re only using one ½ inch fiber wad I think your column is too short, also I’d put an overshot card on top of the wad so when you push everything down the shot doesn’t embed in the wad.   You can also buy just a shot cup and set that on top of your wad, it’ll tighten up your pattern.  If you want I can send you my load for BP brass Magtech hulls. 

[Bart Slade]

13 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Sedalia Dave is right, the problem appears to be the pattern.  Here’s a couple of things to think about, if you’re using a Stoeger SG you can change the chokes, that’ll tighten up the pattern some.  Second, if you’re only using one ½ inch fiber wad I think your column is too short, also I’d put an overshot card on top of the wad so when you push everything down the shot doesn’t embed in the wad.   You can also buy just a shot cup and set that on top of your wad, it’ll tighten up your pattern.  If you want I can send you my load for BP brass Magtech hulls. 

 

Thanks for the advice!   I'm very "green" as far as loading shotshells, so I hadn't considered increasing my wad length.   I just want to make sure I understand you correctly - longer column (which I understand as wads under the shot) improves accuracy?    

 

I will definitely try the overshot card on top of the wad as well.  

[Tequila Shooter]

3 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

 

Thanks for the advice!   I'm very "green" as far as loading shotshells, so I hadn't considered increasing my wad length.   I just want to make sure I understand you correctly - longer column (which I understand as wads under the shot) improves accuracy?    

 

I will definitely try the overshot card on top of the wad as well.  

 

Don’t think as “improves accuracy”, what you’re trying to achieve is shot pattern.  Changing things like column height, powder weight, shot weight will affect the shot pattern.  As a good starting point start with a square load, here’s some reading that’ll help: Shotshell Loading, 10 Gauge Loads  

[Eyesa Horg]

FWIW. Not any help I guess with brass, but I use 42gr. of 3f, a pink plastic wad and 1oz. Of #8 shot in plastic hulls. Never an issue knocking em down. Squirt Windex w/vinegar in the barrel and let sit a few minutes and push the plastic out with a wad of paper towel. Easy peasy!

[PowderRiverCowboy]

1oz , nitro card , fiber wad,  1oz 7.5 , overshot card 1897 Winchester at 25 yards  2 shells 

[Chantry]

23 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

Howdy pards;

 

I suppose this is a pretty niche thing, but I'm working on building my black power shotshell loads, and interested in how any of you that might be doing this are building your loads.

 

I've got two kinds of brass shotshells (both 12 gauge); I've got 50 of the MagTech, and 40 from Rocky Mountain Cartridge.   The RMC's have thicker hulls, so use 209 type primers and 12 gauge components; the MagTech have thin walls, they take large pistol primers and take 11 gauge components.

 

For both I've been using 4.3cc Goex 2Fg + 4.6cc #7.5 birdshot (I forget the weight of each, I have it written down but not handy at the moment).  My build has been BP+nitro-card+1/2" fiber wad+2 overshot cards.   I glue the overshot cards in the MagTech, but have so far found it to be unnecessary with the RMC's.

 

Short story long, my RMC cartridges have not failed me yet, but the MagTechs are only about 80% successful with the knock downs.    

 

I'm guessing I've got a few issues with the MagTechs:  I'm going to experiment with magnum large pistol primers (I don't know that the standards have the umph),  I'm not sure I'm using enough shot, and I don't think the components fit tightly enough into the shell that I'm getting adequate compression.   

 

I also realize that the fiber wad is going to produce an inferior group to a plastic cup - but I'm trying to stick to as 19th century as possible (and honestly don't like cleaning all the plastic goop out of my shotgun after a match).

 

I've got plenty of room in both cartridges that I could nearly double my BP and shot charges (particularly if I reduce to 1/4" wads) but I don't particularly want to be the clown that's out there shooting a shoulder cannon.  Not every week anyway.

 

For reference, I shoot a CZ hammered coach; the Magtech shells are 2 5/8",  the RMC's are 2 3/4".  

 

Spend the past weekend at a state level match using 12 gauge BP loads that are probably very close to yours:  65 grains (by volume) of 2F and 1 oz of probably #8 shot.  They were shot out of a CZ Bobwhite G2 using the improved cylinder chokes.  I had no issues with the knockdowns.  

 

How hard are you compressing the load in the Mag Tech brass?

 

 

[Bart Slade]

5 hours ago, Chantry said:

How hard are you compressing the load in the Mag Tech brass?

I'm using hand loading tools I got from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, so compressing it about as tight as I can by hand.

 

I was wrong initially about my powder charge, i wasn't using 4.3cc, I was using 43 grains (about 2.8 cc), along with 8 oz of shot - so I think my loads were too light.

 

Based on the advice I got here, I made another couple dozen rounds; 12 using 52gn BP and 1oz of shot, and another 12 using 63gn BP and 1.125 oz shot.  Both using 1" fiber wads.    Also switched over from 2Fg to 1.5Fg for the powder.

 

 

[watab kid]

i gotta ask the dumb question here - i dont load or shoot brass shot shells, and i dont shoot BP loads in my shot shells  - how is it possible at our distances that the pattern can differ between two mfgrs cases ? and how can it be fixed ? 

 

im not looking to start an argument im actually interested in knowing how that can happen , i can conceive of issues at trap or skeet distance or beyond in sporting clays but we are not dealing with that here  , i just cannot see a possible issue at our static target ranges , thanks for the explanation in advance 

[Chantry]

6 hours ago, watab kid said:

i gotta ask the dumb question here - i dont load or shoot brass shot shells, and i dont shoot BP loads in my shot shells  - how is it possible at our distances that the pattern can differ between two mfgrs cases ? and how can it be fixed ? 

 

im not looking to start an argument im actually interested in knowing how that can happen , i can conceive of issues at trap or skeet distance or beyond in sporting clays but we are not dealing with that here  , i just cannot see a possible issue at our static target ranges , thanks for the explanation in advance 

Probably a difference in how they are manufactured.  Rocky Mountain CNC machines their hulls out of brass bar stock and the tolerances are very tight.  It's also why they cost so much ($10 and up per hull) and last so long.  Hull life is unknown, I have heard here of some with more than 3000 loadings.  RMC also has a wider selection of hulls & cases and IIRC will even do custom cartridges if you provide the dimensions.

 

Magtech stamps their hulls, the brass is much thinner and the tolerances aren't as tight as the Rocky Mountain hulls, but they are far less expensive (About $1.25 a hull or even less pre-Covid) and last a while if no one steps on it.  I have not worn out a Magtech brass hull yet and some have at least 6 loadings.  Magtech does not make brass 10 gauge hulls

 

The short version is that if you load a RMC hull with the correctly sized components there should be no blow by of the powder.  While I like the Magtech brass hulls, the tolerances can be loose enough to allow blow by which will reduce pressures and affect patterns.   

 

 

[Tequila Shooter]

11 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

I'm using hand loading tools I got from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, so compressing it about as tight as I can by hand.

 

I was wrong initially about my powder charge, i wasn't using 4.3cc, I was using 43 grains (about 2.8 cc), along with 8 oz of shot - so I think my loads were too light.

 

Based on the advice I got here, I made another couple dozen rounds; 12 using 52gn BP and 1oz of shot, and another 12 using 63gn BP and 1.125 oz shot.  Both using 1" fiber wads.    Also switched over from 2Fg to 1.5Fg for the powder.

 

 

 

Your new load should be much better.  I’m also using the RMC hand loading tools and I use a rubber mallet twice, the first time after the placing the BP, Nitro Card and wads, then again after the shot and final overshot card, a couple three whaps and everything is tight and right.  Also, the only difference between 1.5 and 2 FFG will be the smoke and fire, the 1.5 will give you more of both. 

[Bart Slade]

21 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

I use a rubber mallet twice, the first time after the placing the BP, Nitro Card and wads, then again after the shot and final overshot card, a couple three whaps and everything is tight and right.

 

Although I've never had a problem with the Magtech shells, with the RMC's I (one time, out of about 75 loaded) had the primer go off as I was seating it.   I was using the flat metal block they provide as a base, shell was in the center of it - gave it a thump and the primer is strong enough to bounce the loading tool off the ceiling of my garage.

 

Which was enough  to convince me not to whap  with a hammer while loading.     

[Sedalia Dave]

11 hours ago, watab kid said:

i gotta ask the dumb question here - i dont load or shoot brass shot shells, and i dont shoot BP loads in my shot shells  - how is it possible at our distances that the pattern can differ between two mfgrs cases ? and how can it be fixed ? 

 

im not looking to start an argument im actually interested in knowing how that can happen , i can conceive of issues at trap or skeet distance or beyond in sporting clays but we are not dealing with that here  , i just cannot see a possible issue at our static target ranges , thanks for the explanation in advance 

 

The RMC hulls are the virtually same inside diameter as a plastic 12 ga hull. The Magtech hulls inside diameter is 11 ga. While this difference is small it may be just enough to allow the shot pattern to deform. 

 

What typically happens is the force of the powder causes the fiber wad between the powder and shot to be forced up through the shot column rather than pushing the shot column out ahead of the wad. The shot ends up being forced out to the sides leaving a void in the pattern. This happens at even close distances.

 

There are a couple of possible fixes. One is to increase the amount of shot. The other is it add an additional card wad between the shot and powder. 

 

The over shot card can also cause a pattern to be thin in the center. This usually happens if the card is excessively thick or 2 cards are used instead of one.

[Bart Slade]

16 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The RMC hulls are the virtually same inside diameter as a plastic 12 ga hull. The Magtech hulls inside diameter is 11 ga. While this difference is small it may be just enough to allow the shot pattern to deform. 

 

The RMC's (I suppose because they're stiffer than plastic) are actually a little tighter than plastic 12 GA hulls.   It's slightly challenging (for me) to get 12 GA components into the RMC's.   I have to force the nitro cards down fairly hard (and 3-4 times) to get the air bubble out from under them- they're that tight.  I usually end up shaving a bit off the fiber wads as the result of forcing them in.  Like loading a lead ball into a cap and ball pistol.

 

The Magtechs, I can get the 11GA components in with thumb pressure, and have to use a 10 GA overshot card.  

 

Definitely explains why, with identical loads, I've never had trouble with the RMC's, it's only the Magtechs.  But as someone pointed out earlier, you can buy 10 Magtechs for the price of one RMC.   

 

My experience so far is limited though; I've shot two matches using the RMC's and one using Magtechs - so don't read too much in yet.   All I can say is "to be continued".

[watab kid]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:42 AM, Chantry said:

Probably a difference in how they are manufactured.  Rocky Mountain CNC machines their hulls out of brass bar stock and the tolerances are very tight.  It's also why they cost so much ($10 and up per hull) and last so long.  Hull life is unknown, I have heard here of some with more than 3000 loadings.  RMC also has a wider selection of hulls & cases and IIRC will even do custom cartridges if you provide the dimensions.

 

Magtech stamps their hulls, the brass is much thinner and the tolerances aren't as tight as the Rocky Mountain hulls, but they are far less expensive (About $1.25 a hull or even less pre-Covid) and last a while if no one steps on it.  I have not worn out a Magtech brass hull yet and some have at least 6 loadings.  Magtech does not make brass 10 gauge hulls

 

The short version is that if you load a RMC hull with the correctly sized components there should be no blow by of the powder.  While I like the Magtech brass hulls, the tolerances can be loose enough to allow blow by which will reduce pressures and affect patterns.   

 

 

ok , i got ta gonjur on that a bit but i think it worth the thinkin , thanks , 

[watab kid]

On 6/8/2022 at 12:23 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

The RMC hulls are the virtually same inside diameter as a plastic 12 ga hull. The Magtech hulls inside diameter is 11 ga. While this difference is small it may be just enough to allow the shot pattern to deform. 

 

What typically happens is the force of the powder causes the fiber wad between the powder and shot to be forced up through the shot column rather than pushing the shot column out ahead of the wad. The shot ends up being forced out to the sides leaving a void in the pattern. This happens at even close distances.

 

There are a couple of possible fixes. One is to increase the amount of shot. The other is it add an additional card wad between the shot and powder. 

 

The over shot card can also cause a pattern to be thin in the center. This usually happens if the card is excessively thick or 2 cards are used instead of one.

ok , this is makin more sense to me , the wad interference was not something id ever thought much of , i see this now - no comparison to modern plastic wads that follow the shot and so do not interrupt its path , now im getting where ya all are coming from , 

[JackSlade]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:00 AM, Tequila Shooter said:

Sedalia Dave is right, the problem appears to be the pattern.  Here’s a couple of things to think about, if you’re using a Stoeger SG you can change the chokes, that’ll tighten up the pattern some.  Second, if you’re only using one ½ inch fiber wad I think your column is too short, also I’d put an overshot card on top of the wad so when you push everything down the shot doesn’t embed in the wad.   You can also buy just a shot cup and set that on top of your wad, it’ll tighten up your pattern.  If you want I can send you my load for BP brass Magtech hulls. 

Could you send that to me too, please. Currently waiting for components to come back in stock to start loading my own Magtech 12g and federal paper loads with 777 Ffg.

[Turkey Flats Jack]

For the mag tech hulls you need 11ga wads and nitro cards. They work in the thicker hulls too just harder to seat. Then a 10ga overshot card. Definitely need to pattern your loads til you find one that's not blowing holes in the shot. For me that's 43 gr of 2f and 1⅛ oz shot.  Or go with plastic wads. 

[Tequila Shooter]

@JackSlade here you go:

for MagTech hulls

3.7cc hand dipped 2FG powder (+/- 46gr)

then a Nitro Card

on top of that 2 each ½ inch fiber wads

on top of the wad put an overshot card

then 1 ⅛ oz of shot

top the whole shebang with another overshot card

seal it with Duco Cement

 

Hope it helps

[Johnny Knight]

Tequila, do you have a preferred vendor for your nitro cards/shot cards/wads?

Johnny

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Well, maybe not the most helpful as I use APP.  MagTech hulls.  Large pistol primers.  Any large Pistol.  About 40Gr 2F APP, A Ballistic Products Spitfire wad and a 1 ounce pay load.  11Ga over shot card, no glue.  Takes down any popper I hit fair.  The space left in the top of the hull is irrelevant.

 

As far as the "snake skin" I just squirt a goodly amount of PAM down the barrels, then a brass brush wrapped in Blue shop towel, wet with PAM.  Pump it a couple times and bore is clean.  Dry patch and Oily patch, DONE.   

[Erasmus]

The mag tech hulls have a LOT more volume than the RMC hulls and given the same charge will produce less pressure and velocity according tot he BPI brass hull manual. Could be why the RMC hulls worked but the mag techs didn't. I would imagine you might notice a recoil or report difference too?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I just happen to be a card carrying Recoil Wimp and don't like to be abused by my shotguns.  40Gr 2F APP with a 1 ounce payload will take down any popper I hit.  Disclaimer:  You do have to "HIT" the target (imagine that).

 

Now, I found in patterning, using fiber wads (early on) resulted in large holes in my patterns.  I switched to Ballistic Products PB1044 wads, trimmed for a 1 Ounce pay load and the shot cup eliminated holes in the pattern.  Then switched to BPI Spitfire wads to eliminate trimming the shot cup.  No hole in the pattern.  Quite successful on knock-downs.  I consider the shot cup as essential.