38-40 OAL

[Seth Bradford]

Working on setting up my dies for 38-40, looking for a good starting point OAL for 38-40 in a Uberti 73 rifle. I thought maybe @Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283or @Rancho Roymight be able to get me pointed in the right direction. 

 

Thanks!

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Alliant shows minimum length of 1.575" while Hodgdon shows OAL of 1.600.  Anything more than 1.600" won't cycle in the rifle or work in pistols. 

[Col. Cornelius Gilliam, SASS#5875TG]

I've been shooting 38-40's exclusively in the Frontier Cartridge Category for a long time.

 

I settled on a cartridge overall length of 1.585".

 

Works in my 73 rifles, 92 rifles and all the revolvers.

 

To use magma profile bullets in the 73 rifles, I did have to throat the chamber with a reamer.  Don't know if Uberti ever fixed this problem, all my 73's had the same issue.  Story I heard was Uberti copied an early Winchester chamber that had no lead, designed for a bullet that crimps over the oglive of the bullet. 

[G W Wade]

As long as your finished cartridge is shorter than the carrier, Good to go      GW

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Using 180 grain Big Lube bullets mine mic out at 1.524 when seated in the crimp groove.

[Three Foot Johnson]

12 hours ago, Seth Bradford said:

Working on setting up my dies for 38-40, looking for a good starting point OAL for 38-40 in a Uberti 73 rifle. I thought maybe @Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283or @Rancho Roymight be able to get me pointed in the right direction. 

 

Thanks!

I've never understood this question - the cannelure/ crimp groove is where it is, there's no moving it. I suppose each piece of brass could be trimmed to make a shorter overall length, but dang.

I use an Accurate Molds 165 grain and an NEI 195 grain design, both of which load to 1.6" ±, in eight .38-40 rifles and nine .38-40 revolvers.

I had a Saeco mold at one time with a shoulder, kind of a SWC design, and have them about used up in pistol loads because of the short throats on my Uberti .38-40 rifles. Last weekend I had back to back matches Saturday and Sunday, and didn't take enough rifle rounds, so after the match Saturday, I sat outside my trailer with a knife and trimmed the shoulder off 20 of them. 

[Seth Bradford]

42 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I've never understood this question - the cannelure/ crimp groove is where it is, there's no moving it. I suppose each piece of brass could be trimmed to make a shorter overall length, but dang.

I use an Accurate Molds 165 grain and an NEI 195 grain design, both of which load to 1.6" ±

I had a Saeco mold at one time with a shoulder, kind of a SWC design, and have them about used up in pistol loads because of the short throats on my Uberti .38-40 rifles. Last weekend I had back to back matches Saturday and Sunday, and didn't take enough rifle rounds, so after the match Saturday, I sat outside my trailer with a knife and trimmed the shoulder off 20 of them. 

The purpose of the question was as this is the first large carrier rifle I have had I was curious if there is a "sweet spot" for cartridge length just as the small carrier seem to really seem to like 38 specials sized in the area of 1.485 oal. I know Roy and a few others have extensive experience with the 38-40.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Without trimming each piece of brass to create a shorter overall length, or using a very light bullet (which might be shorter), I'm at a loss as to how you would adjust OAL. The crimp groove is where it is, there's no adjusting it. If you seat a bullet a few thousandths deeper, it will bulge the case mouth as it crimps and won't chamber. This is something you have to be watchful for with the thin walls on all the dash calibers; .25-20, .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40. Same if you load it longer and aren't crimping in the groove. The thin case walls aren't stout enough to crimp into the bullet like, say, a .45 Colt, and will bulge or buckle if not in the cannelure. If you're loading black powder, or a sub, you have some leeway because the compressed powder keeps the bullet from pushing back into the case - run it into the crimp die just enough to take the bell out so it chambers, and it will probably be fine.

[G W Wade]

Been there, done that.   Have been shooting 44 Mag for years.  Picked up 73 carbine in 44/40.   love the little rifle but all my 200 gr bullets  have too much nose.  4 different bullets, last was Lee 44/ 200 advertised for 44 Mag and 44/40.   All my present bullets crimped in crimp groove measure 1.610   Not buying another mold.   Shortened my brass ,050 and label as 44/40 Short         GW

[Two Dot, 14911]

I use a Lee factory crimp die. 
It is a collet type crimp and can crimp anywhere below the ogive. I can also use bullets without a crimp groove, like those made for 40 S&W pistols.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I also use a Lee FCD in the last station of my 550's for .38-40.

[Kid Rich]

If you want to shorten you OAL use compressed BP and you can adjust how deep you seat the bullet. For my Lightning my OAL is 1/16" shorter than the crimp groove, it seems to cycle better.

kR

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

These are the SAAMI specs.  Keep your rounds between the Min and Max and you will be fine.  The Winchester rifles were designed for an optimal cartridge length of 1.590.  The .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40 are all the same length.

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I do not own an Uberti rifle chambered for 38-40, but this original Winchester Model 1873 is chambered for the cartridge.

 

It likes 38-40 rounds about 1.550 in length, give or take a few thousandths.

 

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree wit h Three Foot Johnson.

 

The location of the crimp groove in my 38-40 Big Lube bullets dictates the Over All Cartridge Length.

 

In this photo, one of my 38-40s is on the left, a 44-40 on the right.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing I learned the first time I took that rifle to a match was to throttle back a little bit on how much Black Powder I put in the case.

 

Yes, 44-40 is the parent case to 38-40, they are identical in shape except 38-40 has been necked down a little bit further.

 

My standard load in 44-40 is 2.2CC (about 33.3 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. When seated this provides the 1/16"-1/8" of compression of the powder I am looking for.

 

I put that same amount of powder into the first batch of 38-40s I loaded up. I did not try seeing how they chambered before showing up at a match.

 

The first 38-40 round I chambered jammed in the chamber and would not go in, effectively tying up the gun.

 

When I got the rifle home, after taking it apart I realized that 2.2CC of Schuetzen filled up the narrower neck of a 38-40 a bit higher than in a 44-40. The result was, as I seated and crimped my bullets, they did not mash down the powder all the way but instead the soft lead bullets swelled under the pressure of being seated, and would not chamber in my Winchester.

 

So I reduced the charge in the next batch of 38-40s I loaded up to 1.9CC (about 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg. This still compresses the powder the amount I want and the bullets are not deformed when seated and crimped.

 

Of course none of this matters if loading with Smokeless, because the powder charge should be nowhere near the base of the bullet.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

I do not own an Uberti rifle chambered for 38-40, but this original Winchester Model 1873 is chambered for the cartridge.

 

It likes 38-40 rounds about 1.550 in length, give or take a few thousandths.

 

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree wit h Three Foot Johnson.

 

The location of the crimp groove in my 38-40 Big Lube bullets dictates the Over All Cartridge Length.

 

In this photo, one of my 38-40s is on the left, a 44-40 on the right.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing I learned the first time I took that rifle to a match was to throttle back a little bit on how much Black Powder I put in the case.

 

Yes, 44-40 is the parent case to 38-40, they are identical in shape except 38-40 has been necked down a little bit further.

 

My standard load in 44-40 is 2.2CC (about 33.3 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. When seated this provides the 1/16"-1/8" of compression of the powder I am looking for.

 

I put that same amount of powder into the first batch of 38-40s I loaded up. I did not try seeing how they chambered before showing up at a match.

 

The first 38-40 round I chambered jammed in the chamber and would not go in, effectively tying up the gun.

 

When I got the rifle home, after taking it apart I realized that 2.2CC of Schuetzen filled up the narrower neck of a 38-40 a bit higher than in a 44-40. The result was, as I seated and crimped my bullets, they did not mash down the powder all the way but instead the soft lead bullets swelled under the pressure of being seated, and would not chamber in my Winchester.

 

So I reduced the charge in the next batch of 38-40s I loaded up to 1.9CC (about 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg. This still compresses the powder the amount I want and the bullets are not deformed when seated and crimped.

 

Of course none of this matters if loading with Smokeless, because the powder charge should be nowhere near the base of the bullet.

Hi, Driftwood,  Just for information, will the Winchester cycle the longer rounds, say up to the max around 1.592?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

On 6/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Hi, Driftwood,  Just for information, will the Winchester cycle the longer rounds, say up to the max around 1.592?

 

Interesting question.

 

The overall length of my 38-40 reloads is dictated by the location of the crimp groove on the Big Lube 38-40 bullets I use.

 

That sets the over all length of my 38-40 ammo at 1.550, give or take a couple of thousandths. That is the only ammo I have ever run through my old Winchester, and it runs fine, although it is a bit less than the SAAMI minimum OAL shown above.

 

My reloads are the only 38-40 ammo I have on hand.

 

I do have some A-Zoom 38-40 snap caps. They are significantly longer than my reloads.

 

They are running around 1.580 over all length. Still significantly less than the MAX OAL of 1.592 referenced in the drawing above.

 

I ran a couple of these snap caps through the old Winchester. That is about the maximum OAL it will accept. Maybe .010 -.015 longer and they would probably not clear the chamber as they rode up in the carrier. As you are probably aware, with any toggle link rifle such as the 1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester, and 1873 Winchester, the OAL of the cartridge needs to be slightly less than the length of the carrier, to prevent jamming as the carrier comes up. In addition, the extractor claw does not snap over the rim until the cartridge is chambered. That keeps the cartridge sitting roughly .080 forward on the carrier until the bolt shoves the round in place and the extractor snaps over the rim. I suspect this particular Winchester would jam if cartridges 1.592 were rising up on the carrier, but not having any rounds of that length this will have to remain a guess.

 

Here is a photo of my old Winchester Model 1873 along with two of my 38-40 reloads, and two of the A-Zoom snap caps. The snap caps are the purple ones. You can see they are a bit longer than my reloads.