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Small Guns for SASS


Bisley Joe

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Looking at getting my wife a pair of revolvers (I've posted about this before, but still looking). She tried the 1851 Navies-just cocking them, and the hammer was a bit high for her. She has thin fingers, and much smaller hands than I.

 

Any small frame pistols that can be used in SASS? Not sure what the rules are right now. She would LOVE something like the 1849 Pocket Pistol or Wells Fargo in .38 or .32, but they are five shot even in conversions I think, so are those still a no-no as far as main pistols?

 

I have a .22 Cimarron SAA in 3/4 size, and I think they make those in .38, so those are OK?

 

 

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The small frame Ubertis (Lightning, Model P-Jr (also called Stallion)) are legal and available in .38, .32, and .22  I think the Ruger single-sixes are similar size.  As Sacramento says, some clubs are allowing .22's these days.

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Interesting. Didn't know about the 22 being allowed.

I'll look into that and the Model P/Stallion/Lightning).

 

Thank you!

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Remember the smaller and lighter the gun the more felt recoil.  Not counting the .22.   The smaller sight radius can also be an issue.  You will here this more than once but let her go to a shoot and try different guns and let her pick it out.  Much easier to get the right one the first time.  Bullett 

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The only rouble with .22's is you really can't get a really light hammer pull because the rounds may not go off. If she shoots two handed it shouldn't be a problem Lots of clubs around here allow .22's because of the primer situation. I shot .22's two weeks ago just for the fun of it. Two Wranglers, a Henry .22 lever rifle and my regular shotgun. I have to say it was fun!!;)

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If she was comfortable with weight and grip of '51 Navies, then you might consider having hammers lowered to a position workable for her. 

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I’ll likely shoot 22s on our July 5th Saturday match. It’s just kinda fun every once in a while. Might even drag out the 410 double too. 
 

but Uberti Lightning’s are likely the way to go. I have a pair that my wife used to shoot. She liked them a lot more than my vaqueros. Felt recoil is a bit more tho. I did find some 96grn bullets for them. That did help a little. 

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Lot's of good info.

Thank you!

 

I like the lightning size for her, especially if I can get them with the SAA style grip like my 22 one. I think the SAA shaped grips, even though smaller, are better at absorbing felt recoil than the bird's head grips.

 

For a shotgun I will likely get her a 20 or 410 mule eared coachgun.

 

Still, I wish the 1849 Pocket or Wells Fargo was allowed, as those would be perfect.

 

As far as the Navies, she did say they felt heavy, but that was with the regular long barrel.

 

I'll see about taking her to a match. It would be perfect if she could spend some time with other ladies while getting introduced to different calibers.

 

 

I have .38 special dies, and a bullet mold for I think 158 grain bullets in 38. Semi Wad Cutters. Loads will be with black powder in pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

 

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I would think '49s to small and as someone else mentioned bullets such as 90s might be good ticket with '51s customized to lowered hammers and shorter barrels.

P juniors and Lightnings mentioned not bad choice either.  Navies are said to point extremely well for many shooters so light loads, shorter barrels, brass front post, and lowered hammers to suitable position all sounds like some real handy shooters..

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So you are going to have her shoot smokie stuff starting out?

 

Keep in mind the 20 and 4-10 shotguns are going to have more felt recoil than a 20 with light loads. Best to have her try some before you buy some and she does not like them.

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Spiller and burr is something to consider.  It's 36 cal and may or may not be actually smaller than a 51, but it feels very small compared to my 58 and 60's.  here's a pic next to my 58. it's also a 6 shot.  my model was worked on by @Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 and has a pretty light hammer, I may actually need to get a heavier one if I can't find caps that fit my cones better as I was getting light strikes last match, I suspect cap fit was to blame, but a stronger hammer probably wouldn't hurt.  I don't know if they are all light out of the box or if mine is because it was worked on.  cap nipple combo was Slix and CCI11's and Win 11 mags.  

 

 20210417_225046.jpg.e9762c2f5c37437a324c0b8672023c4d.thumb.jpg.2777ea39531b05b8fb1406511ad5c91d.jpg

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1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

I would think '49s to small and as someone else mentioned bullets such as 90s might be good ticket with '51s customized to lowered hammers and shorter barrels.

P juniors and Lightnings mentioned not bad choice either.  Navies are said to point extremely well for many shooters so light loads, shorter barrels, brass front post, and lowered hammers to suitable position all sounds like some real handy shooters..

Yeah, maybe Navy conversions with the 4 3/4" barrels. The are very well balanced, and I can make custom grip scales: thinner maybe. THANKS.

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1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

Spiller and burr is something to consider.  It's 36 cal and may or may not be actually smaller than a 51, but it feels very small compared to my 58 and 60's.  here's a pic next to my 58. it's also a 6 shot.  my model was worked on by @Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 and has a pretty light hammer, I may actually need to get a heavier one if I can't find caps that fit my cones better as I was getting light strikes last match, I suspect cap fit was to blame, but a stronger hammer probably wouldn't hurt.  I don't know if they are all light out of the box or if mine is because it was worked on.  cap nipple combo was Slix and CCI11's and Win 11 mags.  

 

 20210417_225046.jpg.e9762c2f5c37437a324c0b8672023c4d.thumb.jpg.2777ea39531b05b8fb1406511ad5c91d.jpg

Thank! Good idea! Nice revolver!

Any issues with the brass frame?

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

Runnin' Iron and the like have lower hammers.  Or she can cock them with her off hand.

 

These are Cameron Eliminator 8s with low wide hammers. 

 

1769465977_CimarronEliminator8Sept2019.jpg.782c8820ba8e893e590360e3b8895fb2.jpg

Nice!

Looks basically like they have Bisley hammers. So it's legal in SASS to put Bisley hammers on an SAA?

Are those above the smaller ones in the Lightning frame, or full size?

Wondering: maybe the smaller frame "lightning" with the regular SAA grips and Bisley Hammers?

I had to sell my Bisleys years ago and miss them. Makes me want to get another pair!

 

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+1 to Cowtown Scouts comment on shotguns.20 gauge save you anything on recoil,especially if you use a reduced recoil round in your 12 gauge. 410 may have a hard time dealing with some knockdowns, and the cost of ammunition can really sting.If you reload , you might as well reload reduced power level 12 gauge.The price of components, except for the hulls,is the same.

Just my opinion, of course YMMV.

Choctaw

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31 minutes ago, Choctaw Jack said:

+1 to Cowtown Scouts comment on shotguns.20 gauge save you anything on recoil,especially if you use a reduced recoil round in your 12 gauge. 410 may have a hard time dealing with some knockdowns, and the cost of ammunition can really sting.If you reload , you might as well reload reduced power level 12 gauge.The price of components, except for the hulls,is the same.

Just my opinion, of course YMMV.

Choctaw

Great to know!

Even better, actually: one less caliber to reload!

Thanks!

 

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The key to her being a happy shooter is for her to decide which ones she likes best. There are a number of folks shooting the model P Jr/Stallions and I bet they would let her handle them. The other as mentioned before is the Ruger Single Six small frame gun. A good gunsmith can alter the hammers if need be. .38’s can be loaded down to very low recoil loads too.  Best of luck to you two in your search. 
TTB

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NMV with gunfighter grips and either SBH or bisley hammers works well for small hands. But if she really likes the navy colt sized gripframes then there's the option of having the hammers lowered by a gun smith. If I'm not mistaken uberti or pietta have the lightning, stallion, model p jr models that are built on a smaller frame but I have no hands on experience with those. Good luck

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Thanks again.

The smaller frame ones seem best. But I will work on her handling some at a match when we have a chance.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

Thank! Good idea! Nice revolver!

Any issues with the brass frame?

I've not been running very long.  usual issues with brass frames in colts, are that the rear gets peened as there is a relatively small recoil surface, or the arbor threads get pulled forward resulting in the so called "frame stretch".  on the Remington family guns, there are very large flat areas that mean the force/in^2 is lower than the colts resulting in a greater resistance to peening.  secondly, the forward pull of the barrel is not contained in a single set of brass threads but rather the whole of the top and bottom strap of the frame, so on the whole, I am very comfortable with the judgement that a Remy or S&B in brass should last significantly longer than a brass colt in the same usage scenario.  I'll add to that, the S&B has less chamber capacity than a '51, so it's less likely to have been shot with too much powder if you pick one up second hand.  I'm maxed out for chamber capacity with a 17 grain charge and a 130 grain lee conical.  (modification to the gun or bullet is required if you intend to use the lee 36 cal conical with the S&B.  I swage the base of the bullet so it will sit down into the chamber to rotate under the rammer, but most people modify the frame and rammer to get the conical underneath the rammer.

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I don't think you can call this a small frame, but it does have some advantages over a standard SAA.

480556472_BisleyRight.jpg.6b39d2be92d2a36da314a24e5ff77a9e.jpg

The Colt Bisley is an interesting gun.  It has the low hammer that you have mentioned, and while the odd grips may feel strange when you grab one for the first time, during an actual shoot, you don't really notice that anymore.   The are actually quite comfy to hold, and the gun is very easy to shoot.  And, if you look hard enough, they can be found for a reasonable price, and in low recoil calibers.  This one is a .32-20.  I've also handled one in .38 Special.

 

I believe Uberti does market a replica, which would likely be less expensive than the cheapest real Colt that you can find.  

That  being said, this probably IS the kind of gun not to buy sight unseen, but that you'll want to test fire before obtaining.   

 

Good luck!

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I really don't get all of the fuss over buying guns for ladies.  Bring her to a couple of matches, introduce her around and ask folks to let her try different guns, and she'll have shot more different guns than you in no time flat.  And THEN she'll tell you exactly which ones you are going to have to shell out big bucks to buy for her.  (DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LET HER TRY USFA SAA PISTOLS.) My downright puny little Scottish wife with tiny hands has no problems at all holding and shooting my (more accurately, what used to be my) 357Mag Ruger NMV 5.5" guns with 120gr bullet over 3.5gr of Red Dot.  What was mine is now hers.  I mistakenly tried to steer her towards the smaller framed .22LR Uberti 1873 5.5" Stallions (our club allows .22LR), which she dutifully tried and then said "thanks but no thanks, give me back the NMVs."  First time she tried my Win 97 12ga cut down to 18.5" with my light CAS reloads, she said "I want this."  She weighs 110 pounds soaking wet and recoil was not any problem at all.   So I had to cut down the buttstock to 12" LOP for her and now that's hers too.  Now if I want to shoot a Win 97 I have to buy another one with a regular length stock.  Getting The Mrs. involved costs big bucks but it is worth every penny.

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4 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

I've not been running very long.  usual issues with brass frames in colts, are that the rear gets peened as there is a relatively small recoil surface, or the arbor threads get pulled forward resulting in the so called "frame stretch".  on the Remington family guns, there are very large flat areas that mean the force/in^2 is lower than the colts resulting in a greater resistance to peening.  secondly, the forward pull of the barrel is not contained in a single set of brass threads but rather the whole of the top and bottom strap of the frame, so on the whole, I am very comfortable with the judgement that a Remy or S&B in brass should last significantly longer than a brass colt in the same usage scenario.  I'll add to that, the S&B has less chamber capacity than a '51, so it's less likely to have been shot with too much powder if you pick one up second hand.  I'm maxed out for chamber capacity with a 17 grain charge and a 130 grain lee conical.  (modification to the gun or bullet is required if you intend to use the lee 36 cal conical with the S&B.  I swage the base of the bullet so it will sit down into the chamber to rotate under the rammer, but most people modify the frame and rammer to get the conical underneath the rammer.

 

The Remingtons and S&B are nice. That top strap makes a difference, yeah.

I'm trying to keep the guns cartridge, because my wife isn't going to want to deal with the C&B stuff. I can do it for her, but I want her to be able to load and unload without fuss. Part of this reasonng is self defense: I want her to be able to go for, if necessary, even the single actions and know how to use them well.

 

But that brass frame S&B is indeed rather beautiful! I may indeed go for one eventually!

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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I don't think you can call this a small frame, but it does have some advantages over a standard SAA.

480556472_BisleyRight.jpg.6b39d2be92d2a36da314a24e5ff77a9e.jpg

The Colt Bisley is an interesting gun.  It has the low hammer that you have mentioned, and while the odd grips may feel strange when you grab one for the first time, during an actual shoot, you don't really notice that anymore.   The are actually quite comfy to hold, and the gun is very easy to shoot.  And, if you look hard enough, they can be found for a reasonable price, and in low recoil calibers.  This one is a .32-20.  I've also handled one in .38 Special.

 

I believe Uberti does market a replica, which would likely be less expensive than the cheapest real Colt that you can find.  

That  being said, this probably IS the kind of gun not to buy sight unseen, but that you'll want to test fire before obtaining.   

 

Good luck!

Damn it I miss my Bisley pistols! That's what I used to shoot: a brace of Cimarron Bisley revolvers with 7.y inch barrels, in .45 Colt! Hence my handle: Bisley Joe.

I had to sell them years ago when everything went sideways, and I still miss them. I am going to get myself at least one Bisley as soon as I can. Right now our anniversary is coming up and between an Apple watch which she wants, and maybe a brace of stallions pistols, I will have to wait. Not to mention a lever action.... but that one will wait a little as well.

 

I do agree that the Bisley is a good shooter. I love the way the grips look, and feel  as well. The lowered hammer is also really nice.

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2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I really don't get all of the fuss over buying guns for ladies.  Bring her to a couple of matches, introduce her around and ask folks to let her try different guns, and she'll have shot more different guns than you in no time flat.  And THEN she'll tell you exactly which ones you are going to have to shell out big bucks to buy for her.  (DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LET HER TRY USFA SAA PISTOLS.) My downright puny little Scottish wife with tiny hands has no problems at all holding and shooting my (more accurately, what used to be my) 357Mag Ruger NMV 5.5" guns with 120gr bullet over 3.5gr of Red Dot.  What was mine is now hers.  I mistakenly tried to steer her towards the smaller framed .22LR Uberti 1873 5.5" Stallions (our club allows .22LR), which she dutifully tried and then said "thanks but no thanks, give me back the NMVs."  First time she tried my Win 97 12ga cut down to 18.5" with my light CAS reloads, she said "I want this."  She weighs 110 pounds soaking wet and recoil was not any problem at all.   So I had to cut down the buttstock to 12" LOP for her and now that's hers too.  Now if I want to shoot a Win 97 I have to buy another one with a regular length stock.  Getting The Mrs. involved costs big bucks but it is worth every penny.

I agree about the match thing, but right now its been difficult to get to one.

My wife is pretty dainty and does not like the larger pistols. In fact, for carry, she asked me for something like a Beretta .22; the one with the little pop up barrel. But that's too puny a caliber in too short of a barrel on top of that. And I don;t trust .22 especially in a semi-auto for self defense.

I had a ladyfriend long ago who I bought a .38 snub for. She hated shooting it. Said it hurt her hand at the web. One day, at a 3 gun shoot, she wanted to try it an I lent her my full size 1911. She shot it like it was made for her and came back with a big smile.

 

I got my wife a Sig P365 and it fits her hand perfectly.

 

But anyway, I am pretty sure she will like the stallion type pistols.

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On 6/5/2022 at 10:16 PM, Cholla said:

Same size as the plow handle Stallion (Model P Jr.). It's the grip that's different. I shoot a 3 1/2" Cimarron Lightning in 38 Colt/38 Special, mostly 38 Colt. I have another one that is 5 1/2", my cross draw.

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6 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

I agree about the match thing, but right now its been difficult to get to one.

My wife is pretty dainty and does not like the larger pistols. In fact, for carry, she asked me for something like a Beretta .22; the one with the little pop up barrel. But that's too puny a caliber in too short of a barrel on top of that. And I don;t trust .22 especially in a semi-auto for self defense.

I had a ladyfriend long ago who I bought a .38 snub for. She hated shooting it. Said it hurt her hand at the web. One day, at a 3 gun shoot, she wanted to try it an I lent her my full size 1911. She shot it like it was made for her and came back with a big smile.

 

I got my wife a Sig P365 and it fits her hand perfectly.

 

But anyway, I am pretty sure she will like the stallion type pistols.

Beretta makes a tipup  .32 called the Tomcat.

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15 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I don't think you can call this a small frame, but it does have some advantages over a standard SAA.

480556472_BisleyRight.jpg.6b39d2be92d2a36da314a24e5ff77a9e.jpg

The Colt Bisley is an interesting gun.  It has the low hammer that you have mentioned, and while the odd grips may feel strange when you grab one for the first time, during an actual shoot, you don't really notice that anymore.   The are actually quite comfy to hold, and the gun is very easy to shoot.  And, if you look hard enough, they can be found for a reasonable price, and in low recoil calibers.  This one is a .32-20.  I've also handled one in .38 Special.

 

I believe Uberti does market a replica, which would likely be less expensive than the cheapest real Colt that you can find.  

That  being said, this probably IS the kind of gun not to buy sight unseen, but that you'll want to test fire before obtaining.   

 

Good luck!

this was going to be my suggestion to try , a lot easier on the thumb and still heavy enough to absorb a bit of recoil along with light load ammo , the grip angle does not work for me but i think if one shoots it a bit you can adjust to it , 

 

i vae a spiller and burr - its as difficult as my 1873s for my thumb to reach 

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11 hours ago, watab kid said:

this was going to be my suggestion to try , a lot easier on the thumb and still heavy enough to absorb a bit of recoil along with light load ammo , the grip angle does not work for me but i think if one shoots it a bit you can adjust to it , 

 

i vae a spiller and burr - its as difficult as my 1873s for my thumb to reach 

Thank you!

Bisley's are great pistols. I was able to grab them high up with no problems.

 

And, being such a virtuous fellow, I will be glad to sacrifice myself and ;)rid you of that pesky Bisley...

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I'll go out on a limb here, from a lot of years of experience.  You may well consider the Cimarron Thunderer in 38/357.  Bigger and a bit heavier than the Lightning, but that little extra weight helps soak up what little recoil you get from light loaded .38s.  That odd looking grip also makes the handling and recoil management much better than the Plow Handle.  Give it some thought.

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