Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Branchwater Jack thanks for making these videos but what about this I have a question or more a clarification, when there is a stage that has pistol or rifle knockdowns and make ups are with a different firearm do you have to actually fire 10 shots or prescribed rds from the 1st gun ? example, if say shooter jacks a rd or two can they move on and make up with the gun used for make ups and not be penalized for jack rds ? could also be a bad rd in revolver or miscount with revolvers And this would be SASS rules, not special stage instructions AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 I don’t believe there is a Stage Convention that addresses “makeups” of rifle/pistol knockdowns. An unfired round, regardless of the cause, is a five second penalty under the rules. Keep in mind that the definition of a “miss” includes an unfired round. Can the five second penalty be negated? Not under SASS Stage Conventions. Could stage instructions provide for a “makeup”? Sure. Could you write the instructions to allow a shotgun makeup of a standing rifle KD only if the shooter had fired all required rifle rounds required by the instructions? Sure. If the instructions said only that “misses on rifle KDs may be made up with the shotgun”, would that negate the five second penalty for an unfired round? Maybe, since the SHB defines an unfired round as a “miss”, but that question has generated long “WTC” threads, which means you could have inconsistent rulings and unhappy shooters. Best to be as specific as possible in the stage instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Rich Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Every place I've been you can't make up a round you did not fire, ya gotta fire the ten. kR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Pretty sure PWB clarified a while back that since that jacked out or unfired round is scored as a miss and IF stage instructions say rifle or pistol misses can be made up with shotgun then that unfired round can be made up with the sg so it would not count as a miss. I didn't agree at the time but that changes daily with my nanner split or puddin intake. Keep in mind if you Jack a round you have "engaged" the next target in sequence. I would count a round out of the revolver with a dent in the primer as "engaged" also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 P.S. In my opinion the miss/flow chart might as well go out the window if we change the word "engage" to the word "fire". The shooter would no longer have the options they do when considering target engagement and reloading jacked rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 This happened to me at a BP match. It caused much conversation. All knockdown stage. - 20 total P/R knockdowns. any KD still standing could be made up with SG. Makeups were fired at the KD targets - not a separate make up target. pistols - got knockdowns. Rifle - got 7 knockdowns and had split case I couldn’t get out. This was last stage of what would have been clean match so I tried valiantly to get case out so I could continue…to no avail. I declared BROKEN GUN and moved to SG to make up the 3 standing and TO screamed STOP, PM screamed SHOOT. TO and PM had discussion. I didn’t care but the TO and PM disagreed so we got MD to make call. Final call - which I agree with 100%. The stage called for 10 rifle shots. Only those targets that were, in fact, engaged could be made up. I could not “make up” for rounds I did not shoot. Jacking a round out is not, in my opinion, engaging the target. Misfire is different. Had I been able to “make up” those three standing plates I would have had a clean match. Firing the three additional SG rounds would have added (easily with my skill level at the time) 15 + seconds to my total time. I wish firing 10 and can’t make up for jacked rounds would become the convention because there are folks who could/would easily Jack rounds out - gaining a competitive advantage… Just my thoughts. I’ll be quiet now and wait for @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 to weigh in. Big hugs! Scarlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Quote Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. SHB - Glossary of Terms Levering the rifle (ejecting a round) is considered "engaging" under this definition as it applies to the above listed options. SOURCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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