Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon International & Hodgdon HP 38 absolute minimum powder loads?

[Quiet Burp]

I have some limited quantities of ADI powders that are the same as Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon International & Hodgdon HP 38

 

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/

 

There is no powder for love or money available in Australia presently and with what is going on in the US with buy ups of components the question of when powder will be available here is unanswerable.

 

From Googling there is 15300+ or so grains of powder in a kilo.

 

I need to drop down the very minimum of powder reloading to extend my meagre powder stock. 

 

What would be the absolute minimum powder loads to be safe loading those three powders listed above for Ruger Vaqueros and Uberti 1873 rifle in .38 cases with 125grain lead flat point bullets?

 

This shortage could well go on for years, if I could save .5 (or any amount) of grains of powder per cartridge it could let me enjoy shooting CAS for longer before I'm out completely.

 

Hopefully a question like this is OK to ask and I would very much be thankful for some load data with minimum powder charges. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I load 3.0gr Clays with a 125gr bullet,  I have seen some load it down to 2.5Gr. But it can get temperature sensitive at that charge.

 

 Randy 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

When I used Clays I used 3.2 grains with a 125 grain bullet in both rifle and pistol (preferably a magnum primer) but when I got low on magnums a standard SPP worked just fine. I set OAL at 1.5 inches and the rifle loved them the pistols didn't care.

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[Quiet Burp]

I was terrible at maths in school 

 

1 Kilo of powder is roughly 15,432 grains

 

15,432 divided by 3.5 would give 4.409 reloaded cartridges

 

15,432 divided by 3.0 would give 5,144 reloaded cartridges

 

15,432 divided by 2.5 would give 6,172 reloaded cartridges

 

So if I was able to drop down from 3.5 grains to 2.5 grains of powder (safely) that would give me an extra 1,763 reloaded cartridges per kilo of powder. That's a big jump in being able to keep on shooting for an extended (who knows how long) amount of time.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Heck, Hodgdon's data shows 2.5gr as Clays minimum with 125gr bullet, for 810fps.  Max is 3.5 for 978fps.  I tried some 2.5gr once for fun (it was Waterloo's load at the time) and way too wimpy for me.   But then I had no need to stretch my powder.

 

As AD would say, you guys are shooting howitzers! 

[Itchy Trigger]

35 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I could probably throw a rock with more velocity!

[Captain Bill Burt]

2.5 is the lowest listed Clays load for 125 grain bullets. I load right at 2.75 (some loads read 2.8, some 2.7). I’ve had good results and no issues with squibs. 
 

I know some shooters who’ve cut all the way down to 1.9, or so they claim.

 

I ask myself, if I load a few thousand and some of them don’t work, would I be willing to pull all of them to retrieve the components? The answer is no, I’m to lazy and would throw them away. So I up the charge a few tenths and don’t have to worry about it.

[Eyesa Horg]

I'm running 2.8grs. of Çlays in Ellie's 125 38s. in her 4 5/8 Vaqueros. At 2.5gr. I was getting a lot of unburned powder. Don't recall the velocity, but they don't sound mouse farty!

[Dream Chaser, SASS #79316]

I have Clay Dot which I have been told is pretty much same as Clays and use 2.5 which shoots fine and made power factor.

["Big Boston"]

IMO the absolute lowest charge would very much depend on your choice of components and your reloading set-up. 

 

In order to get consistent ignition with low powder charges one "trick" is to select a bullet and/or seat that bullet to reduce the powder chamber volume to as small as possible. Remember, to be legal, some lead must stick outside of the case mouth.  "Ammunition with bullets recessed below the case mouth is not allowed.".

 

 

The picture shows what I'm describing, in this instance a 230 gr bullet is seated to an OAL of 1.36" in a 45 Colt case. This will essentially reduce the powder chamber volume from a 45 Colt case to one slightly smaller than a 45 S&W Schofield, allowing for a reduction in powder charge and still maintain a decent velocity with adequate pressure. Look for bullets with long shanks, wadcutters or bullets with a long point, like a truncated cone bullet. At the pressure levels and recoil generated the bullet should stay put even though it is not crimped. 

 

This will mean that you will have handgun ammo and a different load for your rifle. The above dummy round will not feed in a rifle. 

 

My preference is to use wadcutters in my 36/357 handguns. 

 

I chrono my loads and I'd recommend doing so when trying below book loads. I test for consistency and for powder position sensitivity. I shoot one cylinder (five rounds) with the powder positioned forward, against the bullet and a second cylinder full (five) with the powder back against the primer. 

 

I can't take credit for the deep seating hint, it was suggested by the cowboy that sold me a pair of 45 S&W Schofield open tops. 

 

38 Special wadcutter data is not hard to find, but just to illustrate here is my 38 Spl wadcutter load with Trail Boss. (which is impossible to find, sadly).

 

Calibre	38 S&W Special			Date Loaded		2019-08-24
Powder	Trail Boss			Weight in Grains		2.5  (5S)
Bullet	358-148-WC LEE			Weight in Grains		149 > 150
Primer	Fed 100			Loaded OAL		1.24
Case	W-W 38 SPECIAL (Nickel)			Weight in Grains
Times Loaded				Number loaded		10, 10, 50
Rifle	NV 320			Barrel clean/fouled
Velocity Av	638/638	Es	29.5/19.9	Sd	14.2/7.4	Shots	5>/5<

 

BB

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

At the minimum level of powder there can be erratic ignition, especially if the powder drop is off a bit and drops powder below the minimum.  As Capt. Bill said above, having to pull heads off loaded rounds may not be worth the trouble.  It will certainly make it more expensive.  I had a problem with the powder drop on my progressive press last year and was throwing loads below the minimum.  One pistol would lock up due to primers backing out and not reseating because of that.  The rifle wasn't a problem, while the second pistol was also OK.  I'm not sure why, but in the end I replaced the first pistol with one of a different caliber, which worked fine since I hand loaded the ammo for that one.

 

Sleepy Floyd posted on May 19th that in response to his query on Trail Boss powder availability, Hodgdon said first part of 2023.  I don't know if that means anything for Australian shooters.

[John E. Law]

I also run 2.8gr Clays with a 125gn TCFP but in my rifle. It's very constant.  I use 2.5 grs of TiteGroup with a 100gn DEWC for pistols. 

 

JEL

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

HP-38 and Winchester 231 are the same powder

[Last Call Saul]

holy crap!!! I load my 125 tc bullets to 1.480 OAL with 4 gr of HP-38 and consider them "light"! 

 

I guess, I should drop to 3.5

 

 

[John E. Law]

50 minutes ago, Last Call Saul said:

holy crap!!! I load my 125 tc bullets to 1.480 OAL with 4 gr of HP-38 and consider them "light"! 

 

I guess, I should drop to 3.5

 

 

4grs? Might be a bit heavier than you think. Lol

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

10 hours ago, Dream Chaser, SASS #79316 said:

I have Clay Dot which I have been told is pretty much same as Clays and use 2.5 which shoots fine and made power factor.

At 3.0gr Clay Dot in the winter in Tennessee I was not getting enough pressure to consistently reseat the primers, causing the gun to lock up. I went up to 3.2gr and solved the problem.. Once I got more Clays I went back to 3.0gr Clays and use the Clay Dot for shotgun shells. I didn’t have to change the bushing for that.

 

 Thanks 

Randy 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

At 3.0gr Clay Dot in the winter in Tennessee I was not getting enough pressure to consistently reseat the primers, causing the gun to lock up. I went up to 3.2gr and solved the problem.. Once I got more Clays I went back to 3.0gr Clays and use the Clay Dot for shotgun shells. I didn’t have to change the bushing for that.

 

 Thanks 

Randy 

It doesn't get very cold where Dream Chaser shoots!  But the point that weather can be a factor in the lightest loads is an important one.

[Kodiak Jack]

I run 2.8 gns clays under a 105 TC bullet. as my sweet spot. It maintains great accuracy and low recoil. I use to use the same load for the 125 TC bullet as well with the same performance. 2.5gns is to temp sensitive in my opinion.  

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

2.7 grains works for Sassy and I for mostly 105 and  125s but is fine for  135 & 147s.