Anyone shooting one of the Winchester 1873 Competition 357/38spl carbines?

[1st Sgt BearClaw Toklat]

Was wondering what people are seeing with these competition specials.  The limited edition 1 of 201 and 1 of 101 Davidson's editions?

Specifically, will they run with 38 special or do you need to shoot 357's?   

[Assassin]

First I've heard of a competition model.  I have a Winchester 357, it will cycle 38's without any trouble. 

[Uncle Ethan # 94321]

I purchased one called a competition model. Didn't say it was 1 of a limited number. Feeds 38s fine. Problem I had was ejecting brass. Had it worked on and working fine now.

[Irish Pat]

i have 3 winchesters, 2 are 357 and 1 in 45. Cody did action  jobs on two and one went to Boomstick Jay. I am pleased with all three. Irish ☘️ Pat

[Moe T Vator]

check out my video that goes through some of the primary differences between some common '73s

 

https://www.facebook.com/100040022922019/videos/2724534374508790/

 

[Assassin]

What's the difference between the regular model and competition model?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

37 minutes ago, Assassin said:

What's the difference between the regular model and competition model?

If you go to the Winchester website and read the product descriptions the only difference is the price.  Since it is designated a "Competiton" model it costs more.

 

https://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1873/current.html

[Assassin]

4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

If you go to the Winchester website and read the product descriptions the only difference is the price.  Since it is designated a "Competiton" model it costs more.

 

https://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1873/current.html

I can break a competition model just as quickly as a standard version. Don't know about everyone else but I'm tired of constantly repairing my 73's. 

[1st Sgt BearClaw Toklat]

https://www.davidsonsinc.com/wra-73-comp-carb-g1-357-20b-de

 

Here's the link.  It's a Davidson's exclusive.  It is short stroked with marbles sights.

[Nickel City Dude]

6 hours ago, 1st Sgt Yukon said:

https://www.davidsonsinc.com/wra-73-comp-carb-g1-357-20b-de

 

Here's the link.  It's a Davidson's exclusive.  It is short stroked with marbles sights.

Nice but unfortunately they don't have any in stock at the moment.

["Big Boston"]

As with any toggle link lever gun, the gun has to be tuned correctly to run well, and the ammunition has to be correct for smooth feeding. 

 

I've tried a few bullet shapes and some shapes will not feed smoothly, so without seeing your ammo or knowing the specs, specifically OAL, your question can't be answered. 

 

If the bullets shape is proper, a 38 Special cartridge will feed and shoot properly if the OAL is between 1.45" and 1.55". I need 38 special ammunition for my '66 and because it is a Trapper I load to an OAL of 1.5" and my cartridges will also run fine in my Winchester (Miroku) 73 as well. The carrier on both rifles and most toggle link levers is 1.6". If the ammunition for the 38/357 gets any longer than 1.6" the action will jam up. They seem to run better with ammo that is around 1.55" than with ammo exactly at 1.6". 

 

> Try and find a bullet shape that will reduce the powder chamber volume as much as possible. I load wadcutters in my handguns so i can run low velocities that are not powder position sensitive and have consistent velocities. 

 

It does get a bit challenging to find a bullet that will seat and crimp properly at the OAL you want. Most cast bullets, if crimped in the cannelure are a bit short of ideal if seated in a 38 Special case. And some of those same bullets may be too long in OAL if loaded in a 357 case. 

 

There are many threads on this forum that cover ammo for the 66/73, It may be productive to do a search for them. 

 

I've posted this picture before, and it shows my 38 Spl cartridge and it works fine in a '73 as well. The bullet shape is smooth and the case is crimped into the bullet hard enough that there is no edge to catch on when the cartridge is being fed into the chamber. 

 

[img]https://i.imgur.com/tnNLR0S.jpg[/img]

 

If you use 357 brass, a bullet like a 125 to 135 gr RN FP will seat to an OAL of around 1.5" and it will be golden. If you load to a touch over 1200 fps you will get a nice "crack" as the bullet will be going supersonic. It is easier to load 38 Special ammunition with a heavier bullet in the 140 to 150 gr at a lower velocity and still get consistent velocities. Such bullets tend to seat to a longish OAL in a 357 case. 

 

Depends on what you want to do. 

 

BB

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

9 hours ago, 1st Sgt Yukon said:

https://www.davidsonsinc.com/wra-73-comp-carb-g1-357-20b-de

 

Here's the link.  It's a Davidson's exclusive.  It is short stroked with marbles sights.

 

Maybe I keep missing it but I don't see anything in that ad about a short stroke.

[1st Sgt BearClaw Toklat]

SO, the reason I asked was because I just got this rifle and my snap caps jammed because like Big Boston said, they were too short.  With 158gn factory 38 spl is runs just fine, EXCEPT, I can't get it to hold more than 9 rounds.  The first 6 go in smooth, but then it gets stiffer and grittier until number 9.  After that, I can't get the 10th round in for nothing.   Any suggestions.

Pettifogger:  I had heard it was "short-stroked" but I haven't played with a moded Uberti.  Here is a pic of two of my Winnies.  it looks a tad bit shorter, and feels shorter too.  Not sure if its a true short stroke or not though...

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

It could be that an extra long magazine spring got installed.  Pull the end cap and see.  You only need a few inches sticking out of the tube, any more is excess.  While the end cap is off, make sure the follower slides easily up and down the tube.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Have you removed the end cap and cleaned the inside of the mag tube?  With a 20" barrel you should have no problem loading ten rounds.  Check the tube for rust and then check how long the mag tube spring is.  It should only be sticking out three or four inches.  If it is longer trim it.  All .357 73s will fire .38s.  You just need to make sure you are not loading super short .38 rounds.  There are a couple of threads on .38 OAL on the wire right now.  Basically if you keep your ammo around 1.500" OAL they will feed fine.  Neither of the guns in the photo are "short stroked."  Miroku made 73s are a little shorter out of the box than a Uberti but are not what most people consider short stroked.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

14 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

...Neither of the guns in the photo are "short stroked."  Miroku made 73s are a little shorter out of the box than a Uberti but are not what most people consider short stroked.

I don't know how short your rifles are but the rifle on the right looks about the same as my C&I 3rd Gen. SS.

[1st Sgt BearClaw Toklat]

OK, thanks for all the info.  I'll check the mag spring and follower 

["Big Boston"]

There are some basics that apply to all magazine tubes, and in order to optimize or maximize the capacity, one should check out and correct any issues, then modify to gain a bit of capacity. 

 

Other than loading up the tube to see how many it holds, all the rest require the disassembly of the magazine. Start with an unloaded firearm, please.

 

I've run into an instance where the follower was binding near the end due to a rough spot or dirt. Once the end cap is removed, remove the spring and then point the muzzle down and the follower should drop put. It has to be able to slide easily up and down in the tube. If it does not, correct that.

With my '66 trapper one limiting factor was the length of the magazine tube itself, after all the barrel is only 16". I measured the length of the magazine, from the opening in the frame to the tip of the end cap. I subtracted from that the length of the end cap and the length of the follower. I divided that by 10 and if I kept my cartridges to 1.5", it would hold 10 cartridges.

 

Therefore, for me, the only thing to check after that was for spring binding when fully compressed, and if it would compress fully into the cup part of the follower. 

 

The follower can be shortened but before you do I'd check to see if the spring will compress and fit into the follower. This is a bit tricky to check, but if you use a small diameter wooden dowel you should be able to check if the spring will compress into the follower. Spring slipped over the dowel, dowel inside the follower and then compress the spring. Wear eye protection. 

 

To give it a fighting chance I shortened the spring. With the end cap removed, and the follower installed slip the spring into the tube and point the muzzle upwards. Measure the length of the spring sticking out of the tube. In theory, you don't need much spring sticking out, 3" would be fine for rifle, a bit more on a 12 ga shotgun. A bit longer wouldn't hurt, too much shorter gets a bit bit close to having too little pressure for the last round. I've seen 4" and 6" numbers suggested. 

 

In a '97 to fit 6, you need a shorter follower and those are available. Followers tend to get a bit wonky if you shorten indiscriminately. 

 

You may have to reduce the diameter of the spring slightly to get it to compress more into the follower if you are trying to gain the last mm of length. You may also have to bevel or "funnel" the mouth of the follower so the spring slips easily into the follower easily without catching or binding.  

 

When you take things past the design limit, attention to detail counts. 

 

Warning, a spring looses a bit of tension over use and time, and if shortened it may need to be replaced a bit more often than a longish stock one. 

 

With a shorter spring it is easier to load, less pressure to push against.

 

BB

 

 

[1st Sgt BearClaw Toklat]

Thanks everyone.  I disassembled the magazine and checked spring length, ease of follower moving up and down, signs of rust or other obstructions.  Everything checked out.  The spring was 4" past the end of the mag tube.  I re-assembled everything and the spring must have been binding somewhere.  I loaded 10 38 spl's, which was still tight and left it loaded over night.  I have loaded and unloaded it several times and the spring tension is easier now and loads 10 with no problems.   

 

["Big Boston"]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:15 AM, 1st Sgt Yukon said:

Thanks everyone.  I disassembled the magazine and checked spring length, ease of follower moving up and down, signs of rust or other obstructions.  Everything checked out.  The spring was 4" past the end of the mag tube.  I re-assembled everything and the spring must have been binding somewhere.  I loaded 10 38 spl's, which was still tight and left it loaded over night.  I have loaded and unloaded it several times and the spring tension is easier now and loads 10 with no problems.   

 

 

Good stuff. Coincidently my spring was binding "somewhere" as well, once it stopped binding, I heard a click, it never did bind up again. Been good for years now. My guess, it had to take a set, or ??

 

BB