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New to CAS--Lotsa Questions


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Howdy!  Long time shooter and reloader, but CAS is the first shooting game my wife has become interested in, so I am all in.  We are both pushing threescore and ten and she has some hand issues.  Thinking .38/.357 vs. .45LC, for her and because I have .357 dies.  We will start with only one set of guns and go from there.   We do have a club that meets monthly for info, but I am excited to gather all the info I can, as soon as I can, so thank you all for all your coming thoughts:

1.  Consensus on 105 vs 125 gr .38 bullets?  What do you think?  I am willing to load separately for revolvers and rifle, but it may be easier to load the same for both.

2.  4.75 inch vs. 5.5?

3.  Bisley vs. SAA style?  Neither one of us has larger hands.  (I have A Ruger Singe Six .22LR fort comparison, as well as a S&W Mod 29...)

4.  Do you know of any places that have less than 12-16 months lead time for leather rigs?

5.  It seems a way for us to start might be through someone who is getting out of CAS.  Would you know of anyone? 

Have found everyone to be very friendly and helpful and looking to eventually be able to pass it on!  Thanks, and Happy Trails!

 

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Welcome to the best game and folks goin'. 

As stated above, get to a match and try some guns to see what you like. Check J-M Leather for a holster rig and watch the classifieds here.

 

 

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Glad to have you guys join up! I've been in for about 5 years and I love more everyday. 

To answer you questions as best I can.

1. I use 125 round nose flat point bullets in both pistol and rifle, I'd recommend finding a profile that will feed reliably in your rifle and load it for both pistol and rifle. Also 125s will handle a knockdown better than 105s.

2. I use 4.75 rugers and love them, have also used the 5.5s and sold them. Slightly quicker draw, and you won't likely miss the extra barrel length at the distance we shoot at.

3. I have only shot the saa type never the bisley, but I have handled 1 or 2, didn't care for it personally.

4. Can't answer that off hand, maybe ask some fellow local shooters if they have extra or if they do work in leather, you never know.

5. Not personally but best of luck in locating your gear.

I would also second the above opinions, go to your local club and see if the locals are willing to let you try a few things out. At best it will save some time and money, worst case they will say no. But it has been my experience that they will have no problem with letting you try.

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I just looked at the Events listings for New York.  It looks like there are 4 matches listed between now and September.  Most major matches have venders and yard sale days.  Those would be a good place to find the parts and pieces you'll need to play this game.  You can also hang out and watch the match and get to know some of the shooters.  There are often bullet venders at these larger matches too.  

 

Speaking of bullets, I like to keep things simple.  I shoot 38 spl and load a 125 gr TCFP bullet for pistol and rifle.  That way I don't have to worry about separate loads for different guns.  Just find something that works well in your rifle because the pistols won't care.

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Go to local shoots and have your wife ask ladies if she can shoot their guns.  She will have preferences.  Get a shotgun cut to fit her.  This is a gun that should not be shared.  Source low recoil shotgun shells for your wife even if you have to load them for her.  The leather I've bought from Mernickle never took a year to arrive - always less than two months.

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44 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Check J-M Leather for a holster rig

I concur...J-M Leather is an excellent place to get your leather.  I believe his lead time is usually about 8 weeks or so.

 

As others have said, go to a match!  That's the best way to get a feel for what you will like.

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1 hour ago, Shepherd Book said:

Howdy!  Long time shooter and reloader, but CAS is the first shooting game my wife has become interested in, so I am all in.  We are both pushing threescore and ten and she has some hand issues.  Thinking .38/.357 vs. .45LC, for her and because I have .357 dies.  We will start with only one set of guns and go from there.   We do have a club that meets monthly for info, but I am excited to gather all the info I can, as soon as I can, so thank you all for all your coming thoughts:

1.  Consensus on 105 vs 125 gr .38 bullets?  What do you think?  I am willing to load separately for revolvers and rifle, but it may be easier to load the same for both.

2.  4.75 inch vs. 5.5?

3.  Bisley vs. SAA style?  Neither one of us has larger hands.  (I have A Ruger Singe Six .22LR fort comparison, as well as a S&W Mod 29...)

4.  Do you know of any places that have less than 12-16 months lead time for leather rigs?

5.  It seems a way for us to start might be through someone who is getting out of CAS.  Would you know of anyone? 

Have found everyone to be very friendly and helpful and looking to eventually be able to pass it on!  Thanks, and Happy Trails!

 

 

58 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't buy anydangthing till you have attended a few shoots and done hands on live fire.

 

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the BEST advise you will get as a newby! Do not buy until you try or you will end up rebuying very soon after.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

With that said

1) I load a 100gn DEWC for my pistols and a 125gr TC/FP for the rifle. I have 2 dillon 650s and so it's very easy for me. 

2)The 4.75 will give you a faster draw, but 5.5 look awesome IMO. If you're looking to just play and have fun I know some cowboys who shoot 20" buntlines just because they love it.

3) again try what's out there. CAS shooters are wide open and love you to try their stuff....This is NOT USPSA or 3 Gun.  If you have smaller hands, like me, make sure you try the birdshead grips. That's what I use and I love them.

4) There are a lot of rigs that come up on the wire here. Buy used and modify if needed. Also look for local leather guys. A lot of your local SASS shooter may dabble in leather work.

5) SASS shooters are a family, which is why I love it so much more than modern gun matches. Not one single shoot have I ever been to that hasn't felt like a reunion.

 

Welcome to the family!

JEL  

 

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One item that hasn't been mentioned . . . . . THE SHOTGUN.  Depending on your individual measurements, you absolutely CANNOT share a shotgun.  The shotgun MUST be fit to the individual.  Shotgun ammunition is NOT forgiving.  Field loads and "Target" loads will positively beat you and her to a pulp.  Lo Noise Lo Recoil is your friend.  Most "Target" ammunition is intended to break clay birds at 30 to 40 yards.  Even "light target" is NOT.

 

You may be tempted to start "Her" with a 20Ga.  DON'T.  20 Gage guns are lighter than 12 Gage guns and will NOT soak up recoil and 20Ga "Target" ammunition WILL beat her to a pulp.  The only ammunition recommended for a 20Ga is "Fiocchi" "TRAINER"

 

PUT A RECOIL PAD ON IT!!

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Shiny!

As has been said, get to a match and get acquainted. See what tickles your fancy and try what you can.

 

Leather is going to be a style thing, both personal and shooting.

Mernickle has always done good by me.

 

For getting to know more about the game, check out videos by @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854, @Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423, and @Longhunter sass #26602. (I hope I tagged the right Longhunter :blink:)

 

Welcome to the family.

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1.  Consensus on 105 vs 125 gr .38 bullets?  What do you think?  I am willing to load separately for revolvers and rifle, but it may be easier to load the same for both.

Pick one and stick with it.  Simplifies reloading.  My wife shoots 125s from her rifle and pistols.

2.  4.75 inch vs. 5.5?

Try both.  It's more about what balances for you rather than accuracy.

3.  Bisley vs. SAA style?  Neither one of us has larger hands.  (I have A Ruger Singe Six .22LR fort comparison, as well as a S&W Mod 29...)

Lots of different grips frames and aftermarket grips.  Try lots of stuff first.  Let your wife pick her own guns and grips.

4.  Do you know of any places that have less than 12-16 months lead time for leather rigs?

Lots of good leather makers.  Mernickle has some starter sets.

5.  It seems a way for us to start might be through someone who is getting out of CAS.  Would you know of anyone? 

Check with your local clubs.  Is there a State or higher match near you?  They frequently have swap meets.  Post what you are looking for in the classified.  

Have found everyone to be very friendly and helpful and looking to eventually be able to pass it on!  Thanks, and Happy Trails!

Welcome to a great group of people.  Have fun.

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41 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I concur...J-M Leather is an excellent place to get your leather.  I believe his lead time is usually about 8 weeks or so.

 

As others have said, go to a match!  That's the best way to get a feel for what you will like.

Johnny and his wife were great on the phone with Ellie designing her rig.

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1 hour ago, Jay Vendetta said:

Glad to have you guys join up! I've been in for about 5 years and I love more everyday. 

To answer you questions as best I can.

1. I use 125 round nose flat point bullets in both pistol and rifle, I'd recommend finding a profile that will feed reliably in your rifle and load it for both pistol and rifle. Also 125s will handle a knockdown better than 105s.

2. I use 4.75 rugers and love them, have also used the 5.5s and sold them. Slightly quicker draw, and you won't likely miss the extra barrel length at the distance we shoot at.

3. I have only shot the saa type never the bisley, but I have handled 1 or 2, didn't care for it personally.

4. Can't answer that off hand, maybe ask some fellow local shooters if they have extra or if they do work in leather, you never know.

5. Not personally but best of luck in locating your gear.

I would also second the above opinions, go to your local club and see if the locals are willing to let you try a few things out. At best it will save some time and money, worst case they will say no. But it has been my experience that they will have no problem with letting you try.

+1

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Bullets. Round nose flat point will occasionally get stuck coming up to the barrel in the rifle.

My suggestion is truncated cone bullets.

 

Bisleys vs SAA.

Stand next to a mirror, side ways on your weak side.

Raise your shooting arm up to eye level as if you are holding a revolver.

Look in the mirror.

Is you hand straight up and down or does it lean forward at the top of your grip.

Straight up and down is a Bisley grip and leaning forward is a SAA grip.

If you have a forward leaning grip and try shooting Bisleys, you will always be trying to lift your grip up to get it to point at the target.

If you have a straight up and down grip, you will always be trying to twist your grip down to point at the target.

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Thank you to all who have been able to reply so far.  Please, keep the comments and thoughts coming.  We have been married long enough for me to know that I am not her best teacher.  We have been to a couple of shoots already and have received more offers to shoot others firearms than we have had time or ammo to do--one of reasons we fell in love with the SASS community. 

 

The one question I should also have asked is: What do we need to know that we're not smart enough yet to ask about? 

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4 minutes ago, Shepherd Book said:

 

 

The one question I should also have asked is: What do we need to know that we're not smart enough yet to ask about? 

You need to know where you're gonna put your next bigger gun safe.

B)

 

Just sayin...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hendo said:

For getting to know more about the game, check out videos by @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854, @Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423, and @Longhunter sass #26602. (I hope I tagged the right Longhunter :blink:)

 

In the order you listed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/BranchwaterJack

 

https://www.youtube.com/JEDiTV

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL64DBEE0284DF6424

 

I would also check out our current World Champion's You Tube Channel. He has a lot of great tips there as well.

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DeadEyeCowboyActionShooting

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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11 minutes ago, Shepherd Book said:

Thank you to all who have been able to reply so far.  Please, keep the comments and thoughts coming.  We have been married long enough for me to know that I am not her best teacher.  We have been to a couple of shoots already and have received more offers to shoot others firearms than we have had time or ammo to do--one of reasons we fell in love with the SASS community. 

 

The one question I should also have asked is: What do we need to know that we're not smart enough yet to ask about? 

  1. The Evil Roy DVDs were very helpful in my wife and my improvement in CAS.
  2. If you don't already own a progressive reloading press, plan on buying one.
  3. Reloading supplies are periodically unavailable.  The US has the worst shortage in my memory right now.  Don't try to bargain shop.  Just obtaining satisfactory supplies is currently necessary.  When reloading supplies become abundant again stock up.
  4. Once-fired brass is OK for practice and local matches and is less expensive than brand new brass.
  5. Many CAS shooters are using coated bullets.
  6. Ask us about the proper length and bullet shape for rifle rounds.  Rifles can be finicky about ammo.

 

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Here is a link to a fellow cowboy that has some Uberti Smoke Wagons for sale in 357.

 

 

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When looking for guns, buy the most gun you can afford.

A cheap gun is only cheap until you replace it after a few matches.

 

The 66 and 73 seem to be the most popular. (they are expensive)

Buy once, not twice.

 

Okay, the stock drop is different between the two.

66 works well for shorter people.

73 for the taller people.

Old Model Rugers have big grips.

New Model Rugers have smaller grips. (more like Colts)

 

Rugers are built like tanks. ( still shoot the first 2 I bought back in 91 as my main match guns)

 

Shotguns. Winchester 97 seem to be easier for women to shoot than doubles.

Doubles seem to put more energy back on the shooter from recoil.

Try both.

Try to find a shooter the same height and see if you can try their shotgun.

The stock will already be cut.

 

If the shotgun does not fit correctly for the woman, she will never be happy.

Make sure that when the shotgun is shouldered, that the shooter can reach the ejection port to put another round in the breech.

 

There is too much to explain.

GO to more shoots and ask around to try various guns.

Some one above said you can share the same guns but NOT the shotgun.

 

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Welcome to this game/sport that we all love. On the subject of rifles, the top shooters are using 66s and 73s, but they are heavier to handle than the Model 92s which are very handy and light. Even though they are lighter, they soak up recoil just fine. But if you do get one of those for the Missus, watch your overall cartridge length. My old Rossi was very picky about shorter bullets in 38 Special cases.

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What bullet to use??

I used 105 grain tapered flat point for the pistols loaded with 3.0 grains of Trailboss and 125 grain tapered flat point loaded with 3.6 grains of Trailboss.. I did this from about 2004 through about 6 years ago.. Duece Stevens came out with 110 grain tapered flat point .. I switched to those for both rifle and pistol and haven't looked back..

 

I urge you to watch the "Wire Classifieds " you'll find about anything ya want there..

 

Shotgun?? I shoot a SxS 12 ga. My wife was told to start with a 97 pump.. 12 ga. I got her one..She would not manhandle it (run it hard) and was getting shells stuck, slam firing  and jamming.. She was frustrated and ready to quit SASS until I said " here use my SxS".. She took ownership of my shotgun and I got to buy another one.. I cut the stock to fit her.. and yes.. She loads 2 in the SxS quite efficiently..

 

Just sayin..

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@Rance - SASS # 54090 points out something that should not be ignored.

 

In order to be enjoyable, everyone needs long guns that fit them.

 

I know my wife loves and appreciates that all of her long guns are cut to fit her. She would not enjoy shooting my long guns.  They just would not fit her.

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Ellie preferred the 97 as well, couldn't shuck the SxS. It took 4 years to let me cut the stock! Now she fell and may have broken her collar bone, so I guess we aren't going to find out Sunday how she likes it.:huh:

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I have not been doing this long enough to give good 'tactical' advice. I like 4.6 rugers and do 44s, and...73's are amazing!

I can give advice on leather. My club loaned me an old kinda moldy rig that had been left at the range years ago. I cleaned it up and used it for a few months then...bought a $90 leather package from Hobby Lobby. Used the rig I had as a model.  'Improved' it and made my own. Could still be improved more, next time.  I also made stock covers for my rifles, 2 badge holders, lever wraps.  You get the idea, all from that one package.  For me it was part of the fun and I saved HUNDREDS of dollars. If you go my route you do want to glue and stitch two layers of the leather together to get it thick enough for what we do. I used wood stain for color and some decorative tools from Hobby Lobby. The store bought rigs are better there is no doubt!  They are just about perfect if you can afford it. Even so, if you or your 'sugar-booger' are the least bit crafty you can have a LOT of fun making your own. Borrow a rig as a pattern though. The ones they sell are to much and not as nice.

Shalom!

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Just now, Doc Moses said:

I have not been doing this long enough to give good 'tactical' advice. I like 4.6 rugers and do 44s, and...73's are amazing!

I can give advice on leather. My club loaned me an old kinda moldy rig that had been left at the range years ago. I cleaned it up and used it for a few months then...bought a $90 leather package from Hobby Lobby. Used the rig I had as a model.  'Improved' it and made my own. Could still be improved more, next time.  I also made stock covers for my rifles, 2 badge holders, lever wraps.  You get the idea, all from that one package.  For me it was part of the fun and I saved HUNDREDS of dollars. If you go my route you do want to glue and stitch two layers of the leather together to get it thick enough for what we do. I used wood stain for color and some decorative tools from Hobby Lobby. The store bought rigs are better there is no doubt!  They are just about perfect if you can afford it. Even so, if you or your 'sugar-booger' are the least bit crafty you can have a LOT of fun making your own. Borrow a rig as a pattern though. The ones they sell are to much and not as nice.

Shalom!

Oh yeah!  When I was out of powder I ended up with 22s. Old buckaroo is SO MUCH FUN and CHEAP!  bought a Henry 22 and Wranglers. No work on them. I just shoot. Your wife might like that better and it is a cheap way to get started with your own guns. Low recoil and ammo is cheap too.

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Old Wives tale.  Several Lustrum ago, Uberti "standardized".  Stocks on the '73, '66 and Henry are interchangeable.  The only difference is the Henry stock is 1/2 inch longer.  Stock drop are the same.

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1.  Consensus on 105 vs 125 gr .38 bullets?  What do you think?  I am willing to load separately for revolvers and rifle, but it may be easier to load the same for both.

For this game, 105-158 really doesn't make a whit of difference for the vast majority of shooters. I generally stick to 125-135.

2.  4.75 inch vs. 5.5?

Over the course of 30 years in CAS, I've found I prefer 4 5/8". A former multi-time state champion here swore by 5 1/2"ers, and one of the fastest shooters in the game went to 7 1/2"ers a few years back.

3.  Bisley vs. SAA style?  Neither one of us has larger hands.  (I have A Ruger Singe Six .22LR fort comparison, as well as a S&W Mod 29...)

Personally, I HATE the Bisley grip style.

4.  Do you know of any places that have less than 12-16 months lead time for leather rigs?

Nope.

5.  It seems a way for us to start might be through someone who is getting out of CAS.  Would you know of anyone?

Nope.

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All good advice. Go to a few matches. Look at guns. 38/357 best for game. Cheaper to load for, less recoil. If you run across a pair of Rugers buy them. Best gun for our game. Stay away from Henry Big Boy rifle. They just don’t work well for our game. A 66 or 73 best, then a Marlin, then a 92.  Get a cowboy slicked shotgun, cut to fit your wife. Get one for yourself when you can. 
you will do no better than J-M Leather. Johnny Morris will do you right. 
 

welcome to the game! 

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Maybe she's already a competent shotgun shooter, but if not I have to agree with those that have already stated that the shotgun recoil may be a problem for your wife and should probably be the first gun purchased for her to use rather than trying to share one.  Even with light loads, the shotgun will produce far more recoil than any other one of her CAS guns and if it hurts her, it could change her whole attitude about the game.  The gun needs to fit her properly and have a good recoil pad as well.  It might also be a good idea to fill the hole in the back of the stock with lead shot or have a "Dead Mule" installed as the added weight will reduce the felt recoil considerably.  Shooting technique is also important and it can be difficult to explain to a newbie that pulling the butt stock firmly into the shoulder and leaning into the recoil can actually help to control it.  Obviously, light loads are a must and there are both commercial loads available as well as many handload recipes if you can roll your own.  I personally don't see any real advantage to 20 ga. over 12 ga, as the 12 ga. can be loaded to similar levels and light commercial loads are usually available where most 20 ga. commercial loads are either hunting or target loads which can kick like a mule.  In any case, get her out and let her shoot the shotgun before ever going to shoot a match.  As others have already stated, it would be a good idea to go to a match and ask to try another lady shooter's shotgun to gain her confidence and possibly decide just what to get for her.

 

As far as rifle and revolver calibers, the vast majority of CAS shooters use the .38 Special and I believe it is a good overall choice.  Whether you load the same rounds or different rounds for the rifle and revolvers is more a personal choice than anything, but starting out it would be easier to load the same for both.  Your .357 Magnum dies should work fine once readjusted to load .38 Special and you can shoot .38 Special in most .357 Magnum guns.  Once fired brass is also generally available and often free for the effort to pick them up at my local Sportsman's Club range.  As for bullet weights, don't get hung up on using very light bullets, as the claimed recoil advantage is way overblown in this game and even factory loaded 158 grainers are generally very managable by most folks.  I personally wouldn't go lower than 125 grain and I too would recommend the truncated cone bullet shape, as it has proved to be the most reliable in feeding all of my rifles, especially at speed.  As for choosing a load, remember that lighter bullets generally need more propellant to produce enough pressure for smokeless powders to burn properly, shoot cleanly, and reliably.  Really light loads can cause bullets to stick in barrel or forcing cone and be dangerous if a followup shot is fired and as already stated, the .38 Special is a pretty reasonable load to start with at factory loaded levels anyway.    

 

As far as what type guns, grips, etc. to buy, these are very personal choices and things like the Bisley grip verses the Plowhandle can feel and perform very differently from shooter to shooter.  Frankly, much of being successful in this game is in using what works for you and only you can make these choices successfully.  As previously stated, it would be a really good idea to go to a match and try to shoot guns you are interested in before shelling out the cash and possibly making a costly mistake.  As for shotguns, I would recommend a SXS at least to start.  They are generally easier to learn to shoot than a 97 pump and have fewer moving parts to maintain, but there are plenty of 97 pumps available out there as well.  For rifles the number one choice in CAS is the 1873 levergun, but the Marlins are popular as well.  Marlins can be finicky about cartridge length and recent manufactured guns have not been the same quality as they were before Marlin sold out.  However, Ruger is now ramping up to produce them and considering their reputation, most of us expect the quality to return.  Revolvers are probably the biggest personal choice to make, with the Ruger VQ's probably being the best bang for the bucks.  However, many prefer the SAA action, feel , and authenticity.  While real Colts may require a second mortgage, the Italian clones are affordable, but do have some quality issues from time to time and virtually all of them will need some work before being reliable match guns.  

 

All in all, getting together everything needed can be both expensive and frustrating, but in the long run can be very rewarding as well.  I wish you the best of luck and hope that you and your wife can enjoy this game for many years to come!

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You have been given a lot of good advice. Let me reitterate a couple points

 

If you are going to share guns and leather; Then buy what she wants and you adapt.  DO NOT buy anything that she is not 110% happy with.

 

The shotgun MUST fit your wife.  Have another female shooter show her how to hold it properly. Her anatomy is different than yours and if she shoulders the gun wrong it will be very painful.

 

There is nothing so rewarding as watching your spouse enjoy a shared hobby.

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15 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The shotgun MUST fit your wife.  Have another female shooter show her how to hold it properly. Her anatomy is different than yours and if she shoulders the gun wrong it will be very painful.

 

Viva LaDifferance!

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On 5/13/2022 at 6:53 PM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

She would not enjoy shooting my long guns.  They just would not fit her.

Yep.  I thought I couldn't hit squat with a rifle (PT's).  I just could not hold the barrel on target.  Then he let me shoot one of the rifles he got for the grandkids.  I can, too, hit the broad side of a barn with a rifle!

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And if you do need to share a shotgun at first, get it to fit her, and then use a slip on recoil pad to lengthen the stock for you if needed.

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