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What's the call


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I did not witness the entire event directly as I was at the loading table.  Actions described were as I was told by another cowboy. The shooter is relatively new to SASS.

At a local match, 10-10-4+ two shooting positions, rifle, shotgun then pistols last.  Rifle and shotgun from position A and pistols from position B, downrange. 

Shooter shoots rifle then starts downrange to position B, pulling his first pistol on the move. TO and perhaps others shouted “shotgun”, the shooter tries to back up to shoot his shotgun but stumbles, (he may have bumped into the TO, some saw the interference); he falls to the ground but maintains control of his pistol, it never broke the 170.

One spotter said he saw the gun on the ground but others did not, they said it hit the ground but he never lost control or dropped it.  Shooter hands off the pistol as per RO/TO instruction so he could safely get up off the ground.  One spotter was out of hand, getting loud and admonished the shooter for his actions.  They assessed him a SDQ, I don’t know how they justified the penalty.  IMO, it have been a “no call” and reshoot after unloading the pistol to check the barrel for any dirt obstruction.

What’s your call? 

BTW, in the end the shooter did not shoot the rest of the match and was disgruntled but stayed to help the posse for the rest of the match. 

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From what was described I would say "no call" and offer a reshoot. Possibly interference by the TO. 

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there is no penalty just because a firearm touches the "ground"

 

there is only a penalty if the firearm was dropped. Even then, in this instance, if it was dropped (which it was not) it would have been a MDQ since it was loaded.

 

Quote

Any dropped loaded firearm will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment.

 

Quote

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

So, for the firearm touching the ground while still in control of the shooter is not a dropped gun. If no rule is broken, no penalty should be assessed.

 

If the pistol was cocked, then there would be a penalty for handing off the cocked revolver, but there is no indication that happened either.

 

If the Range Officer did interfere with the progress of the shooter, a reshoot may be granted.

 

 

 

 

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I agree, it it was dropped, the call would be a MDQ.  I can verify that the pistol was not cocked, I turned around to see the shooter on the ground and the RO take the hand off. 

 

We are usually more lenient of reshoots at monthly matches.  My opinion is, if the pistol muzzle could have touched/hit the ground, it may have an obstruction and cannot be safely used for the rest of the stage.  If continuing with the stage, the handed off pistol is no longer available without clearing. 

 

Options are: 

1. Shooter continues the stage by shooting his shotgun and proceed to B, pistol position, engage targets using one pistol, reloading on the clock or take 5 misses. 

2. If a reshoot is offered, unload and verify pistol is clear. Reload guns for the reshoot.

 

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1 minute ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

My opinion is, if the pistol muzzle could have touched/hit the ground, it may have an obstruction and cannot be safely used for the rest of the stage. 

 

Personally, I would agree with you in that, if the TO suspected that barrel could be obstructed, the shooter should be directed to ground the firearm, much the same as you would do in the case of a suspected squib.

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1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said:

From what was described I would say "no call" and offer a reshoot. Possibly interference by the TO. 

I would add, compliments to the shooter for not dropping the gun and maintaining 170.

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Posted (edited)

Based on the info provided....... No Call.

 

BUT, all of us need to be aware of how confusing it is on the shooter when EVERYONE is hollering at them at the same time.

 

When "SAFETY" is not at issue, allow the shooter to run the stage uninterrupted.    If he had shot the pistols before the SG, it would have

only been a 'P'.   A 'P' is no biggie.

But all that interference caused an undue and unwarranted penalty..... and an unhappy new shooter experience.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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28 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Based on the info provided....... No Call.

 

BUT, all of us need to be aware of how confusing it is on the shooter when EVERYONE is hollering at them at the same time.

 

When "SAFETY" is not at issue, allow the shooter to run the stage uninterrupted.    If he had shot the pistols before the SG, it would have

only been a 'P'.   A 'P' is no biggie.

But all that interference caused an undue and unwarranted penalty..... and an unhappy new shooter experience.

 

..........Widder

 

I agree, he could have been allowed to continue and shoot his pistols.  The TO would would have to be vigilant, instructing the shooter to holster pistols and go back to shoot his shotgun.  Getting a P isn't a issue and would have been better for the shooter. 

 

I called the cowboy that brought the newer shooter, giving him my opinion.  We want to stress safety but don't want to push any shooters away. 

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As stated in OP I’m going no call, reshoot for TO interfering. 

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Posted (edited)

What is this "...they assessed him a SDQ" stuff?  The Spotters call Misses and provide input to the CRO (TO) on other possible infractions.  He then assesses said input or NOT, based on his own observations and interpretation of the situation.  "WE/THEY" have no part in this.  The TO is the only one who makes those determinations and gives them to the Score Keeper for recording.  Just as when the Spotters say there were 1, 2 or 3 misses among the three of them... the TO is the one who determines the correct call to the score keeper is 2!  As per the directions in the RO guides.  AS a TO, I've over-ridden spotters on their claims of Procedurals and MSVs more times than I care to count.  I've also called those infractions without any input from Spotters more times than not.  Simply because I'm watching the shooter and their gun and handling of same.   As a TO, I either take responsibility for the safe conduct of everyone on the stage, or I don't TO.  No halfway measures.  Some might say I'm autocratic... but, being the CRO on a stage is NOT a team sport!

 

Based on this 3rd hand report... If I were the TO, the call would be and "go to the unloading table unload, and get make back in line... sorry for my interference."  (If I direct/advise a shooter of a possible deviation from the stage instructions, I'd damn well better be prepared for them to reverse direction on me and be out of their way, so I'm not inferring with their progress.

 

Added:  And if the peanut gallery provides enough of a distraction, I'll stop a shooter in mid-stream and give them the same direction... unload & try again... AND, I'll direct the peanut gallery to shut up...   Only had to do this once... (a junior shooter & pops was gettin' a little too vocal...)

 

(Sorry for changing my post... if you need to change your "reactions... won't be taken personal...)

Edited by Griff
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3 hours ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

   One spotter was out of hand, getting loud and admonished the shooter for his actions.  They assessed him a SDQ, I don’t know how they justified the penalty.

 

Just for clarity, I assume by latter comments the SDQ was called on the shooter. 

   How was the out of hand spotter handled?

  By the way, theres probably no quicker way to run off a prospective new shooter than a bunch of strangers "jumping" on them for what they're doing wrong. Tell them what they did right even if it was just the way they said their starting line. This sport is challenging enough for a new shooter without them having to sort through 10 people telling them 10 different things they screwed up on. I get it, we're all safety officers, but let the TO do his/her job. To that point, It's always good to have an experienced TO running the brand new shooter through the stage. It gets rough when you have a TO that's run the timer for one match running a brand new shooter through the stage.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Just for clarity, I assume by latter comments the SDQ was called on the shooter. 

   How was the out of hand spotter handled?

  By the way, theres probably no quicker way to run off a prospective new shooter than a bunch of strangers "jumping" on them for what they're doing wrong. Tell them what they did right even if it was just the way they said their starting line. This sport is challenging enough for a new shooter without them having to sort through 10 people telling them 10 different things they screwed up on. I get it, we're all safety officers, but let the TO do his/her job. To that point, It's always good to have an experienced TO running the brand new shooter through the stage. It gets rough when you have a TO that's run the timer for one match running a brand new shooter through the stage.

SDQ is what I heard, don't know how they came up with the penalty.  Not the right call, IMO.

 

It wasn't a "bunch", just one, and then they were trying to figure out what to call.  I had loaded guns at the loading table so I didn't get involved at the time. The TO and the obtrusive spotter have been shooting for over 30 years.  They made the wrong call and handled the situation improperly. A few other shooters felt the same way.

 

As for the inappropriate way the spotter approached the shooter, I believe the match director addressed the situation after the match.

 

 

 

 

Edited by J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526
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15 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

SDQ is what I heard, don't know how they came up with the penalty.  Not the right call, IMO.

I was unclear with the description if it was called on the shooter or the spotter.

15 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

It wasn't a "bunch", just one, and then they were trying to figure out what to call.  I had loaded guns at the loading table so I didn't get involved at the time.

As Griff said, TO should be the only one making the call and spotters should just tell the TO what they seen, not figure out a call. That'll wear the best TO out and lead to a wrong decision. I just said "bunch" for other people reading the thread to show how rough it can be on a new shooter.

15 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

The TO and the obtrusive spotter have been shooting for over 30 years.  They made the wrong call and handled the situation improperly. A few other shooters felt the same way.

Well, it happens sometime. Learning experience I reckon.

15 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

As for the inappropriate way the spotter approached the shooter, I believe the match director addressed the situation after the match.

 

 

 

 

Good

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I was unclear with the description if it was called on the shooter or the spotter.  Shooter

 

As Griff said, TO should be the only one making the call and spotters should just tell the TO what they seen, not figure out a call. That'll wear the best TO out and lead to a wrong decision.  TO did make the final call, the wrong one, IMO. The one spotter did get too vocal about it. 

 

14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Answers in red.

 

 

Edited by J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526
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When possible, with a brand new shooter, I try to pair them up with an experienced shooter to mentor them thru the match. Go with them to LT, then escort them to stage, hand off to TO, but stay close. Then after stage take them from stage to ULT to cart. Once at ULT explain to them any penalties, and what they did right. At least for the first 3 stages, then let them work on their own (assuming they are ready) we need yo mentor new shooters. Certainly call penalties, but do it properly. 
 

I think Griffs post was spot on. 

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Quote

receive a  penalty. 

Like - no interpersonal conflict is allowed at matches.

 

good luck, GJ

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5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Based on the info provided....... No Call.

 

BUT, all of us need to be aware of how confusing it is on the shooter when EVERYONE is hollering at them at the same time.

 

When "SAFETY" is not at issue, allow the shooter to run the stage uninterrupted.    If he had shot the pistols before the SG, it would have

only been a 'P'.   A 'P' is no biggie.

But all that interference caused an undue and unwarranted penalty..... and an unhappy new shooter experience.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder for the win.

 

Sound like a potential new shooter got run off by a know-it-all who nobody bothered to put in his place. 
 

I hope the new person comes back.

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Posted (edited)

Horrible way to start out for the newbie.

When I went to my first match ever, most of the Posse told me I had a great run and all kinds of encouragement. No idea what my time was, but couldn't of been good the way my knees were shaking. I feel for this new shooter. Especially on something that as it appears should have been a "no call."

 

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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42 minutes ago, john brown said:

 Maybe the spotter with the loud mouth should receive a  penalty. 

If only!

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Years ago, we had a good Senior shooter (Seniors were much more rare back then.)  He shot the rifle, then ran to the front table to shoot shotgun and pistols.

 

Well, he shot the rifle, then stumbled and fell, doing a complete forward role,  Pistols still in holsters, stood, kept going and finished the stage clean and with a reasonable time!

 

Yup, that was truly matching his alias, Lucky Bucky.

 

What a joy to watch.

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Posted (edited)

This situation is a great learning opportunity.  

We all have to remember this is a GAME played by like minded individuals with safety the prime driving force.  We all should be in a position to help and guide other shootists in their quest to play the game.

What is experience worth?  Not much when it is used wrong.  Cowboys still ride the range in winter wearing cotton blue jeans because of "tradition" and their daddy did it.  Our game has a flow chart to help with just this situation. I have one in my hat and cart!  I have used it many times.

Happy trails to all, just my view from the saddle.

CK :)

 

Edited by Caladisi kid
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5 minutes ago, john brown said:

 Spirit of the game penalty. 

 

Not exactly.   SOG is a 'shooting' penalty.

 

Interpersonal conflicts is a penalty in and of itself................. MDQ

 

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Not exactly.   SOG is a 'shooting' penalty.

 

Interpersonal conflicts is a penalty in and of itself................. MDQ

 

 

..........Widder

 

Correct ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is, or is not, stated as a rule or
shooting procedure.

A “Spirit of the Game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally
disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (e.g., taking the
penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions). In such
case, a 30-second Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is assessed, in addition to any
penalties for misses, procedurals, and minor safety violations.
It is not assessed simply
because a competitor “makes a mistake.”

SHB page 11

Failure to Engage
A “failure to engage” penalty occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards
the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply
because a competitor “makes a mistake. A “failure to engage” applies only to non-shooting
situations such as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite, or otherwise make an
attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions.
In such case, a 30-second “failure to engage” penalty is assessed in addition to any penalties
for misses, procedurals, or minor safety infractions-

SHB page 12

Any shooter, guest, or match official who uses foul language, is disrespectful,
offensive, rude, or becomes belligerent or threatening in any manner will be
disqualified from the event and, at the discretion of the Match Director, may be
required to leave the property.

- Interpersonal conflicts will not be tolerated

SHB page 12

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION PENALTIES (MDQ)
A Match Disqualification (MDQ or “Match DQ”) penalty is of the most serious in nature, and
means the shooter puts his/her firearms away and is done shooting for the duration of the
match.

- Two accumulated Spirit of the Game assessments.

Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct.

SHB page 22

Would definitely need more information but as for the "out of hand" spotter I am glad the MD handled it, From the minimal information given I would have seriously considered asking him to "chill" while no longer spotting. Could certainly have qualified for his/her own MDQ. We are all safety officials and we all make mistakes but I do not understand a spotter "getting loud and admonishing" another shooter, that would really bother me.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

 

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