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What's the call - Pistol on table


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Gun order is shotgun, rifle, pistols.  Shotgun from Position 1 then move to Position 2 to shoot rifle and pistols.  Shooter finished shotgun, move to Position 2 and proceeded to draw a pistol.  TO yelled "RIFLE".  Shooter set drawn pistol down on the table and proceeded to shoot rifle then shot pistols as instructed.  Is there a penalty for the grounded pistol?  If so, what is it? 

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SHBook - page 14

 

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.

- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.

- GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence.

 

If that revolver has not been cocked, then the first condition in the list above will apply.   Shooter can "restage" this revolver to free his hands to shoot the rifle as the second gun.   No call.

 

good luck, GJ

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Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Revolvers

 

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.

- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.

- GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence. (See Gunfighter Rules).

 

Looks like a "no call"

 

Chancy

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- Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

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40 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

- Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

He has not fired the pistol string yet.

 

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Seen this one before and got it wrong... No Call. Totally legal to stage pistols after the course of fire has started and fire other guns.

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I am of the opinion, that the stage instructions must be clear.  If pistols are to be holstered and/or staged.  Tis a no call. 

 

If the stage instructions state Pistols holstered, And the order is clearly Rifle then Pistols, I say it is a P.  As the Rifle is shot and then pistols must be draw from holsters. 

 

But, the Match director is probably the shooter and/or a friend and hence ..NO Call!  Seen this is a few matches as well.  :D-_-

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19 minutes ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

I am of the opinion, that the stage instructions must be clear.  If pistols are to be holstered and/or staged.  Tis a no call. 

 

If the stage instructions state Pistols holstered, And the order is clearly Rifle then Pistols, I say it is a P.  As the Rifle is shot and then pistols must be draw from holsters. 

 

But, the Match director is probably the shooter and/or a friend and hence ..NO Call!  Seen this is a few matches as well.  :D-_-

 

 

Nope, just a regular shooter.

 

Looks like we got it right, no call.  Just seemed very odd at the time.  Thank God we don't get penalized for odd. :lol:

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1 hour ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

If the stage instructions state Pistols holstered, And the order is clearly Rifle then Pistols, I say it is a P.  As the Rifle is shot and then pistols must be draw from holsters

 

That would be an incorrect call.

 

The instructions do not need to state pistols holstered as that is a SASS Convention.

 

According to SASS Stage convention:

 

Quote

If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm. (SASS default).

 

From http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT TG meeting 2016 (edited).pdf

Quote

Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they

must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions

indicate otherwise.

 

Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean

the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless

stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not

touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

Any exceptions to the “default” position

DO NOT negate the other criteria.

 

As long as the shooter starts the stage in the proper position, and that includes revolvers holstered at the start of the stage, then revolvers need only to be returned to holster at the end of the shooting string:

 

Quote

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

It would be no different than a shooter who picks up their shotgun, grabs two off the body, you yell rifle next. They can safely restage the shotgun, put the shells on the prop, shoot the rifle, and then pick up the staged shotgun AND the staged shells without penalty (as long as the shells were staged after the beep as in our scenario as described here).

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Posted (edited)

And, if anyone else is on the fence on this, and won't believe it until it is written by @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L in blue ink,look back at when we discussed this last year:

 

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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So if had shot his pistols first say shooting order is shotgun pistol rifle and he shoots shotgun moves to second position where he is to shoot pistol then rifle and he shots his pistols and grounds them instead of reholster and then shoots rifle and reholsters pistols what’s the call a p because he did not reholster after his pistol string was done

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17 minutes ago, Mr w said:

So if had shot his pistols first say shooting order is shotgun pistol rifle and he shoots shotgun moves to second position where he is to shoot pistol then rifle and he shots his pistols and grounds them instead of reholster and then shoots rifle and reholsters pistols what’s the call a p because he did not reholster after his pistol string was done

Correct. Course that would never happen cuz ya know... rifle not last  :)

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Thank you for the clarity there, Branchwater Jack.  Tis why more often than not, I request a match director or range master for their final saying.

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5 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

As Chancy Shot mentioned, a Gunfighter in that situation MUST stage the uncocked revolver(s).

 

Shooters in other categories have the option to reholster the uncocked revolver.

That, imo, would be an incorrect assumption. "A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence." SHB Pg 7. The gunfighter is not "engaging another revolver sequence" as the revolver sequence hasn't started yet.

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Posted (edited)

It's both amazing and amusing-- the degree of ambiguous  complexity that can be found in our rules and unwritten interpretations.  

 

When half a dozen TGs and/or Rules Committee people chime in on almost every WTC with differing interpretations, and all of them are agruably correct to some degree,  it seems like a sign that the SHB and the rules it codifies could stand a major critical editing and revision.  

 

IMHO, we (and SASS owners)  really ought to be able to do better than this.

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Where it goes plaid, is when you're a match official. On the line, you're trying to make a call, and no one is content, even after you read something book chapter and verse, until they can call or email @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L to make sure you really are right.

 

If you are a baseball fan, He isn't our proverbial New York and just sitting there by the telephone waiting for all of us to call him from the range with our problems.

 

At some point, we have to appreciate that we may not get them all right, no matter how hard we try. But we must also appreciate that we are all doing the best that we can.

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14 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

It's both amazing and amusing-- the degree of ambiguous  complexity that can be found in our rules and unwritten interpretations.  

 

When half a dozen TGs and/or Rules Committee people chime in on almost every WTC with differing interpretations, and all of them are agruably correct to some degree,  it seems like a sign that the SHB and the rules it codifies could stand a major critical editing and revision.  

 

IMHO, we (and SASS owners)  really ought to be able to do better than this.

When regular folks almost always get the call RIGHT, (note the many "no calls" above), it seems to me that most of the ambiguous complexity is by folks "THINKING" and not reading what the rule actually sez, and trying to insert a comma here, or a period there, let alone the extraneous "and", "then" and "after," among others, to the written word.

 

Maybe I don't read EVERY WTC thread, but I don't see that many TGs and/or Rules Committee members chiming in..

 

Maybe a good exercise would be look for the positive in our rule book, versus seeking out what feels negative... 

 

!.  It is short, sweet, and well...  not cumbersome..  

 

2.  When printed copies were provided, it fit in the shirt pocket... (Note, shirt pockets are legal in CAS)

 

3.  It is easily downloaded and carried around on the ubiquitous smart phone...  (Note, smart phones are not listed as illegal items in the back of the rule book)!

 

1989 Cover.JPG

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Griff said:

When regular folks almost always get the call RIGHT, (note the many "no calls" above), it seems to me that most of the ambiguous complexity is by folks "THINKING" and not reading what the rule actually sez, and trying to insert a comma here, or a period there, let alone the extraneous "and", "then" and "after," among others, to the written word.

 

Maybe I don't read EVERY WTC thread, but I don't see that many TGs and/or Rules Committee members chiming in..

 

Maybe a good exercise would be look for the positive in our rule book, versus seeking out what feels negative... 

 

!.  It is short, sweet, and well...  not cumbersome..  

 

2.  When printed copies were provided, it fit in the shirt pocket... (Note, shirt pockets are legal in CAS)

 

3.  It is easily downloaded and carried around on the ubiquitous smart phone...  (Note, smart phones are not listed as illegal items in the back of the rule book)!

 

1989 Cover.JPG

I doubt that very many will say that the SHB makes it simple and easy for new (or even more experienced) shooters to find all of the paragraphs addressing particular subjects, in order to understand and comply with our rules.  So I submit to you that it (SHB) is in fact pretty  cumbersome and convoluted. 

 

And I don't know of any other sport or game that takes such experience, re-reading of multiple manuals and formal training classes just to learn the very basic rules of the game. 

 

I also can't point to any other game/sport that has such debate among knowledgable participants about what certain rules mean or how to interpret them, and often without anyone really being wrong

 

IMO, the SHB has been piece-meal remodled, added onto, and clarified to the extent  that parts of the original floorplan are now hard to find/recognize.  

Small things like numbered sections and sub-sections,  an index, or inclusion of brief "see also:______" parenthetical notations or footnotes in the text would help considerably in navigation.  But those kinds of  improvements can't ever happen if the discussion is dominated by folks with ownership who  defend and stubbornly resist changing  what we already have.  

 

Match Directors  calling PWB for clarification all the time isn't a very realistic solution.  To be functional, rules can and should be clearly organized, understandable, and properly codified. 

 

Again, this is only my opinion. Im not insisting on anything.  But I believe we could do better.   

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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42 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

...

Small things like numbered sections and sub-sections,  an index, or inclusion of brief "see also:______" parenthetical notations or footnotes in the text would help considerably in navigation.  But those kinds of  improvements can't ever happen if the discussion is dominated by folks with ownership who  defend and stubbornly resist changing  what we already have.  

...

 

REFSHB  pp. i-iii (TABLE OF CONTENTS)

 

 

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19 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

REFSHB  pp. i-iii (TABLE OF CONTENTS)

 

 

Im aware of the TOC, as is everyone else who frequently reads the SHB.

 

I am sure you're aware that a Table of Contents is a long ways from a good annotated subject index.  

The index shows all of the pages where a subject is addressed in various specific contexts, which is the kind of differential that we see brought up in almost every wtc here on the wire and which you are asked to interpret for us.  Subjects like restaging of firearms appear in several different TOC sections, without cross reference.

 

As I recall, some time ago someone here on the Wire posted an annotated, cross referenced index that many people use.  I had a print-out, but I'll be darned if I can find it.  If somebody has it, It might make a good starting point.    

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Personally, I think reading comprehension or lack thereof gets in the way more times than not. I'd guess that and lack of rereading the handbook to freshen up ones faculties is the culprit in most cases.

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8 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Im aware of the TOC, as is everyone else who frequently reads the SHB.

 

I am sure you're aware that a Table of Contents is a long ways from a good annotated subject index.  

The index shows all of the pages where a subject is addressed in various specific contexts, which is the kind of differential that we see brought up in almost every wtc here on the wire and which you are asked to interpret for us.  Subjects like restaging of firearms appear in several different TOC sections, without cross reference.

...

 

So will a "search" (e.g. Ctrl F) of specific terms in the on-line pdf docs.
Downloadable to most phones in current use, tablets, and computers/laptops.

 

An example of a cross-referenced term is "MISS" (as noted in the "Glossary of Terms") :
 

Quote

Miss – a failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate firearm type. For further explanation of how to assess a miss, see “Miss Flow Chart” in this document. (See also “5-Second Penalties” section of the PENALTY OVERVIEW”)

- SHB p.44

 

Which includes the following cross-reference:

Quote

Double Jeopardy applies- a miss cannot cause a procedural. To help understand this concept, please reference the Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 of this handbook.

- SHB p.21

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Suppose a stage calls for pistols, rifle, shotgun in that order.  Shooter shoots pistols and places them both fired pistols on the table, then shoots rifle and shotgun.  What is the call?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Kid Ray said:

Suppose a stage calls for pistols, rifle, shotgun in that order.  Shooter shoots pistols and places them both fired pistols on the table, then shoots rifle and shotgun.  What is the call?

Procedural if the pistols are not holstered before the first round is fired out of the rifle

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

SHB pg 21

Quote

Procedural (P) infractions include:

Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
formatting quote
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Posted (edited)
On 5/11/2022 at 9:17 AM, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

 

And I don't know of any other sport or game that takes such experience, re-reading of multiple manuals and formal training classes just to learn the very basic rules of the game. 

 

I also can't point to any other game/sport that has such debate among knowledgable participants about what certain rules mean or how to interpret them, and often without anyone really being wrong

 

 

 

Do you participate in any others?  Because in my experience that situation is NOT uncommon.  EXACTLY the same kinds of discussions go on on IPSC forums...(and I bet USPSA and IDPA as well...lol)    Hell..in IPSC  you  not only have to pass the RO course.....you have to earn a set number of what are essentially "Requalification points" by RO'ing at sanctioned matches (above club level) EVERY YEAR to just maintain your RO rating.  And STILL there are questions and discussions...

Edited by Constable Nelson #11784
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1 hour ago, john brown said:

 Does this mean SASS officials are lacking in proper training to run a fair match? :wacko:.

Remember, SASS officials are your fellow competitors.

 

I would also ask you to define fair.

 

Personally, I stopped focusing on outcomes when I realized that outcomes could be determined by four (4) people who may not be able to see or hear anything and probably last familiarized themselves with the rules of the game in 2007. And those four (4) people may not even be on my posse! :o

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On 5/11/2022 at 10:04 AM, Tennessee williams said:

Y'all know I'm gonna say it....

It's a P even though both revolvers are still considered "in hand".

See this is where the RO III Manual comes in handy... it tells you that two revolvers and a rifle or shotgun, cannot be "in hand" at the same time.  ;)

3 hours ago, john brown said:

 Does this mean SASS officials are lacking in proper training to run a fair match? :wacko:.

No, it means that it's really the luck of the draw... and to think we got rid of "rank points" because folks thought the same thing... :P

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Personally, I stopped focusing on outcomes when I realized that outcomes could be determined by four (4) people who may not be able to see or hear anything and probably last familiarized themselves with the rules of the game in 2007. And those four (4) people may not even be on my posse! :o

Actually, I think those same 4 people have to on your posse... Because the only four I care about are the TO & Spotters.  The rest of them are simply an audience for me to play to!  :o  Remember, the game IS about entertainment!

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