Aussie Soldiers in the Pacific

[Buckshot Bear]

Aussie soldiers through the ages haven't been that big on combat helmets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

Ain't nuthin' as hard as an Aussie's head! 

 

On a serious note, I wonder if there are any studies comparing the rate of head wounds to ANZAC troops to other Allies in similar actions?

[Major Crimes]

Helmets back then were about protection from indirect fire, shrapnel (they didn't stop bullets- ok there is always that story about one or two but in the main they didn't).

The above shots are all in the pacific and where indirect fire was rare and generally ineffective. Heat stroke however was much more prevalent and dangerous to your health.

I would bet in the trenches of WW1 there were a lot more helmets.

We all wear helmets now but those are also more effective against small arms as well as shrapnel. 

[Buckshot Bear]

15 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Ain't nuthin' as hard as an Aussie's head! 

 

On a serious note, I wonder if there are any studies comparing the rate of head wounds to ANZAC troops to other Allies in similar actions?

 

Interesting question Joe.

 

Aussie Diggers Gallipoli -

 

 

 

 

 

Aussie Diggers Middle East WWII

 

 

Aussie Diggers Korea 

 

 

 

Aussie Diggers Vietnam

 

 

 

 

Aussie Diggers Iraq

 

 

 

 

Aussie Diggers Afghanistan 

 

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

10 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

Helmets back then were about protection from indirect fire, shrapnel (they didn't stop bullets- ok there is always that story about one or two but in the main they didn't).

The above shots are all in the pacific and where indirect fire was rare and generally ineffective. Heat stroke however was much more prevalent and dangerous to your health.

I would bet in the trenches of WW1 there were a lot more helmets.

We all wear helmets now but those are also more effective against small arms as well as shrapnel. 

 

An interesting article I found when looking for photos of ANZACs in the WWI European Theatre.  

 

 

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2017/09/10/a-mob-in-uniform-how-the-rowdy-australians-horrified-the-top-brass-in-ww1-but-terrified-the-enemy/amp/

 

 

 

Australians charge into Turkish machine gun fire at Gallipoli. Casualties during the disastrous campaign in Turkey were staggering. (Image source: Imperial War Museums)

 

Whereas two years later

 

Australian troops in the front lines in France, 1917. (Image source: WikiCommons)

[Buckshot Bear]

Aussie Diggers in France, Belgium and other WWI areas of fighting 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[DeaconKC]

Okay, my question is about turning the left brim up on the hats? Individual choice? Style? Why?

[Subdeacon Joe]

A photo here shows a mix of covers.

 

https://anzac100.initiatives.qld.gov.au/remember/western-front/index.aspx

[Buckshot Bear]

1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

Okay, my question is about turning the left brim up on the hats? Individual choice? Style? Why?

 

Side up showing the Rising Sun badge when on parade, marching for ceremonial duties, side down for sun protection and Rising Sun badge off at other times.

[DeaconKC]

Just now, Buckshot Bear said:

 

Side up showing the Rising Sun badge when on parade, marching for ceremonial duties, side down for sun protection and Rising Sun badge off at other times.

Thanks!

[Buckshot Bear]

The Slouch Hat -

 

https://www.army.gov.au/our-heritage/traditions/slouch-hat

 

History of the Rising Sun -

 

https://armyshop.com.au/features/risingSunCollection.html

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said:

 

Side up showing the Rising Sun badge when on parade, marching for ceremonial duties, side down for sun protection and Rising Sun badge off at other times.

 

 

And the left side because that is the "shield side" where insignia is worn.

[watab kid]

shoulda never gave up the FAL 

[Buckshot Bear]

1 hour ago, watab kid said:

shoulda never gave up the FAL 

 

Put a lot of rounds through them, they had some punch over .223 

[Utah Bob #35998]

15 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

Okay, my question is about turning the left brim up on the hats? Individual choice? Style? Why?

The US 1858 Hardee hat was also turned up on the left. But for a purpose. The common position of carry for the musket was support arms. This involves having the weapon along the left side with the arm folded across the chest. This put the gun in contact with the hat brim so it was pinned up. Officer’s hats were pinned on the right because they held a saber on the right side.

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

common position of carry for the musket was support arms.

 

That is the strangest carry position I've ever seen.  Never got the hang of it.

[watab kid]

was the sling over the shoulder ? it looks uncomfortable to me 

[Utah Bob #35998]

9 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

That is the strangest carry position I've ever seen.  Never got the hang of it.

Yup. I can attest that It is awkward and uncomfortable.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I shall be forever grateful to those Diggers. 

[Major Crimes]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:10 AM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

An interesting article I found when looking for photos of ANZACs in the WWI European Theatre.  

 

 

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2017/09/10/a-mob-in-uniform-how-the-rowdy-australians-horrified-the-top-brass-in-ww1-but-terrified-the-enemy/amp/

 

 

 

Australians charge into Turkish machine gun fire at Gallipoli. Casualties during the disastrous campaign in Turkey were staggering. (Image source: Imperial War Museums)

 

Whereas two years later

 

Australian troops in the front lines in France, 1917. (Image source: WikiCommons)

In fairness there was a big difference in the IDF risk between Gallipoli and the Western Front.

 

If you look at the photos BB posted you see some interesting things.

 

As above Gallipoli did not have an IDF threat anything like as bad as the Western Front.

 

The diggers in WW2 have helmets on their webbing and they are clearly in a rear area posing for the shots.

 

I am surprised there aren't more helmets in the Korea shot but they could be patrols or rear area movt photos and depending on when they were taken there may not have been a big IDF threat.

 

All the remainders - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were low IDF threat (harassment, rather than suppression). 

 

While there are plenty of shots of all nations soldiers without helmets believe me they all wanted to survive and go home and they all knew their chances were much better with a helmet when the morning hate started to fall.

 

On 5/8/2022 at 11:54 AM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

And the left side because that is the "shield side" where insignia is worn.

Also possibly because the old rifles were carried on the left shoulder when marching with shouldered arms?

 

[Buckshot Bear]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I shall be forever grateful to those Diggers. 

 @Utah Bob #35998 I'd be very interested to read more Bob if you ever want to tell.

[Buckshot Bear]

My Dad was an Australian Commando in New Guinea (Independent Company) and used a .45 Thompson before before being re-issued with a 9mm Owen. I've mentioned before that I remember him saying that none of them cared much for the stopping power of the Owen and that the .45 put the enemy down and they stayed down.

This Commando with the Thompson below....that's a drum mag isn't it?

 

I've seen photos in my research with the Independent Companies using .45 Thompsons with drum mags and straight mags. 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

23 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

In fairness there was a big difference in the IDF risk between Gallipoli and the Western Front.

 

If you look at the photos BB posted you see some interesting things.

 

As above Gallipoli did not have an IDF threat anything like as bad as the Western Front.

 

The diggers in WW2 have helmets on their webbing and they are clearly in a rear area posing for the shots.

 

I am surprised there aren't more helmets in the Korea shot but they could be patrols or rear area movt photos and depending on when they were taken there may not have been a big IDF threat.

 

All the remainders - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were low IDF threat (harassment, rather than suppression). 

 

While there are plenty of shots of all nations soldiers without helmets believe me they all wanted to survive and go home and they all knew their chances were much better with a helmet when the morning hate started to fall.

 

Also possibly because the old rifles were carried on the left shoulder when marching with shouldered arms?

 

As I recall the steel helmet was not introduced until after Gallipoli. Seems to me they made their appearance around 1916.

[Major Crimes]

21 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

As I recall the steel helmet was not introduced until after Gallipoli. Seems to me they made their appearance around 1916.

Good pick up Bob.

 

This is from the Australian War Memorial site.

 

Between 1916 and 1918, on the Western Front, Australians wore the British issue steel helmet as head protection. This helmet was called The Helmet, Steel, Mark I but is also sometimes referred to as the Brodie steel helmet or the Brodie Mark I helmet. These helmets were approved for service on 15 May 1916.

 

and this from another site

 

The British also sought improved headgear in World War I to reduce shrapnel injuries to the head from air burst artillery. The British War Office began studies in the summer of 1915 and quickly adopted a design by John L. Brodie initially constructed of mild steel. This helmet, designated “Brodie’s Steel Helmet, War Office Pattern” began fielding in October 1915 and gave the name of its inventor to an entire line of stamped steel helmets used by a large number of countries including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United States (which adopted it as the M1917). By 1916, Brodie helmet construction shifted to stronger, non-magnetic manganese steel. Additional improvements to the original Brodie design were approved in April 1916 and led to the fielding of the Mark I steel helmet which began to be issued in September 1916. Unlike the full dome of the Adrian or the Stahlhelm, the British designed helmet was shallower and resembled a pie tin. Its adjustable suspension system, or liner, was of conventional design, being made of leather and treated cloth. Over 7.5 million Brodie helmets were produced and continued to serve, with minor modification and improvements, into World War II.

[DeaconKC]

56 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said:

My Dad was an Australian Commando in New Guinea (Independent Company) and used a .45 Thompson before before being re-issued with a 9mm Owen. I've mentioned before that I remember him saying that none of them cared much for the stopping power of the Owen and that the .45 put the enemy down and they stayed down.

This Commando with the Thompson below....that's a drum mag isn't it?

 

I've seen photos in my research with the Independent Companies using .45 Thompsons with drum mags and straight mags. 

 

The Tommygun he is carrying is the type that can accept either drum or stick mags. That one looks like a 50 round drum, but it is hard to tell for sure. The stick mags were more reliable and 2 loaded 30 round stick mags weighed less than one 50 round drum. Great guns, tough as nails, but HEAVY.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

There was a story that after the troops started wearing helmets, they started to come to hospital with more head injuries and the thought was to do away with the helmets when someone realized they had injuries because they weren’t killed.

 

 

[Black Angus McPherson]

19 hours ago, Major Crimes said:

In fairness there was a big difference in the IDF risk between Gallipoli and the Western Front.

 

If you look at the photos BB posted you see some interesting things.

 

As above Gallipoli did not have an IDF threat anything like as bad as the Western Front.

 

The diggers in WW2 have helmets on their webbing and they are clearly in a rear area posing for the shots.

 

I am surprised there aren't more helmets in the Korea shot but they could be patrols or rear area movt photos and depending on when they were taken there may not have been a big IDF threat.

 

All the remainders - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were low IDF threat (harassment, rather than suppression). 

 

While there are plenty of shots of all nations soldiers without helmets believe me they all wanted to survive and go home and they all knew their chances were much better with a helmet when the morning hate started to fall.

 

Also possibly because the old rifles were carried on the left shoulder when marching with shouldered arms?

 

 

 

What, pray tell, is "IDF"?

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

5 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

 

What, pray tell, is "IDF"?

 

 

Indirect Fire

[Black Angus McPherson]

4 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Indirect Fire

 

WD, ISKD! 

(Well Darn, I Shoulda Knowed Dat!)  

 

Angus

(I knew Israeli Defense Forces didn't make sense)

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

If I recall 1916 was also the year the German army transitioned from the rather Picklehaub (sp?) to the steel Stahlhelm.

[Subdeacon Joe]

4 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

WD, ISKD! 

(Well Darn, I Shoulda Knowed Dat!)  

 

Angus

(I knew Israeli Defense Forces didn't make sense)

 

 

 

 

Especially since Major had used it earlier in the thread!

 

(Now we need an alternative history novel in which the Israeli Defense Forces are transported to the Western Front in 1916)

[Alpo]

21 hours ago, watab kid said:

was the sling over the shoulder ? it looks uncomfortable to me 

From the pictures in this video, there is no sling involved. The rifle musket appears, to me, to be squeezed between the left elbow and the rib cage, and held in place simply by friction.

 

 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Some really great pictures here.

[Alpo]

20 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

This Commando with the Thompson below....that's a drum mag isn't it?

 

I don't believe so. I think it's a 20 round stick.

As you can see here, a drum completely fills up the slot.

 

 

While a stick leaves about a quarter inch of space between the front of the magazine and the back of the slot.

 

 

To me, it appears there is open space at the front of that magazine. And I say a 20 because that's just about the same overall length as the diameter of an L drum. A 30-rounder is quite a bit longer.

[Buckshot Bear]

With a quick search I haven't been able to find any photos of drum mags, but I'm 100% positive that I've seen photos in my research.