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3 Click vs 4 Click


slk
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I know this will be a controversial subject. Several years ago I bought a Cimarron Model P pre war and it did infact have 4 clicks. A year ago I bought another one and it only has 3 clicks. It operates very smooth. I was reading a post somewhere that you could request the parts to convert it back to 4 click but not so sure Cimarron will sell you the parts. Don't know?? Don't even know if it is worth the trouble doing that.

 

Steve

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You can get the parts from Taylor's & Co. Longhunter sells them, also.

As to the need? Well, search 3 click/4 click here. Plenty of conversation on it.

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3 hours ago, slk said:

I know this will be a controversial subject. Several years ago I bought a Cimarron Model P pre war and it did infact have 4 clicks. A year ago I bought another one and it only has 3 clicks. It operates very smooth. I was reading a post somewhere that you could request the parts to convert it back to 4 click but not so sure Cimarron will sell you the parts. Don't know?? Don't even know if it is worth the trouble doing that.

 

Steve

Cimarron's formal policy (for Bubba) is not to warrant any gun that has been disassembled to any degree for any reason. They did help me though for an obvious factory defect that my gunsmith had found in the internals.

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31 minutes ago, Doc Fill 'Em 67797 said:

Four clicks spell C O L T

One click spells Ruger :P

3 clicks spells Ub-er-ti 

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Posted (edited)

I have a factory Uberti four click, and two Uberti 3 clicks.  I bought one of the Taylor's kits to try it out.  The first one I converted was quite rough afterwards and the timing was off, so I converted that one back to Factory and put the Taylor's kit in the second one.  This one dropped right in and is as smooth as the factory 4 click.  Not professional cowboy-smith smooth, but as good as factory.  So don't expect to get glass-smooth action work by simply installing the kit with no fitting. 

 

As to whether the conversion is worth the $90, you'll have to decide.  I've been shooting the 3 click next to the 4 click for about 8 matches, and the only time I notice a difference is at the loading and unloading table.

 

BTW, the reason I don't shoot the factory 4 click in matches anymore is it's a 7th Cavalry model, with 7.5" barrel and narrow front sight blade.  My other two have matching shorter barrels and wider blades in front.

Edited by Diamond Jake
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4 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

the only time I notice a difference is at the loading and unloading table.

I bought a Model P several years before I got into CAS and the second after I decided I was in it for the long run.

1st one was a 4 click, the second was a 3 click. I never had a problem with the 3 click, but the LT and ULT always gave me a pause, so I did the 4 click conversion on it.

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It is my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the difference in the 3 click and 4 click action is that on the 3 click the last two operations occur at the same time.  Basically, all 4 clicks are still there, it's just that the last two don't occur individually.  I also think that the 4 click action is the original/basic setup and that the 3 click is a modification that was intended to be some sort of improvement or advantage of some sort.  Could someone/anyone with more knowledge on this please describe what happens with each of the 4 clicks and what is actually modified to convert to 3 click?  I would also be real interested in hearing if there is a real mechanical advantage or even a perceived advantage to one over the other.  Thanks and good shooting all.   

 

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From my understanding the current production "pre war" frames are all 3 click and have the retractable firing pin. If you want the 4 click you'll need to get the "old model" . I just got a pair of model P "old model" frames and they are both 4 click. Other than the retractable firing pin the 3 vs 4 click makes no difference to me. I just dont like the retractable firing pin as it adds another moving part to wear out. 

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3 hours ago, Bison Bud said:

It is my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the difference in the 3 click and 4 click action is that on the 3 click the last two operations occur at the same time.  Basically, all 4 clicks are still there, it's just that the last two don't occur individually.  I also think that the 4 click action is the original/basic setup and that the 3 click is a modification that was intended to be some sort of improvement or advantage of some sort.  Could someone/anyone with more knowledge on this please describe what happens with each of the 4 clicks and what is actually modified to convert to 3 click?  I would also be real interested in hearing if there is a real mechanical advantage or even a perceived advantage to one over the other.  Thanks and good shooting all.   

 

Your understanding is incorrect. The first click on a 4 click is the safety notch. 3 click guns have no safety notch because Uberti put a rod up through the hammer that holds the firing pin forward only when the trigger is pulled. This "retractable" firing pin is the safety feature, hence no safety notch needed. It has been known since the beginning that the safety notch is not "safe" and will break if the pistol is dropped anyway, which is why we only load 5 in a sixgun.

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I always purchase the black-powder frame Uberti's, because they are "4-click". 

You can still find N.O.S., and used Uberti's, with the "smokeless powder frame", that are still "4-click". 

I have the kit, from Taylors, if I ever mistakenly purchase a "3-click" one.

I also have a friend, on the coast, that has a boat, and can always use another salt-water boat anchor. 

For me, I would not have a "3-click" model, on a bet. For some, they work just fine. I am happy for you. Congratulations.  

For some others, not so much. So, it's the inconsistency...some being okay, some not being okay, that keeps me from, knowingly, buying one.

For those that have had no problems, they will vouch for them, and support that design. For those that have had problems, they will discourage the purchase. To each his own, based on his personal experience. 

However, I must say, I have shot "3-click" revolvers, since 1965...that being, my cap & ball revolvers. :lol: 

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The real issue isn't the number of clicks: it's the increased risk of mechanical failure with the retractible firing pin and the arm on the trigger that actuates the firing pin rod.  Simpler is better, therefore the original 4 click version should be preferred.  The question only you can answer is if it's worth it to you to have the conversion done.

 

I'll probably take the hammer and trigger out of my 4 click Cavalry model and put it in the other of my match guns.

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22 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

Your understanding is incorrect. The first click on a 4 click is the safety notch. 3 click guns have no safety notch because Uberti put a rod up through the hammer that holds the firing pin forward only when the trigger is pulled. This "retractable" firing pin is the safety feature, hence no safety notch needed. It has been known since the beginning that the safety notch is not "safe" and will break if the pistol is dropped anyway, which is why we only load 5 in a sixgun.

This is very interesting!  While I understand the safety notch thing, I still have to wonder why I sent two USFA Rodeos to a local Cowboy action gunsmith that were clearly 4 click and after he worked on them they were clearly 3 click.  When I asked him about that he said that they were set up so that the last two clicks happened at the same time and that was the way he set them up for cowboy action.  I thought it odd at the time, but the guns worked just fine and I shot them for two full seasons without any issues whatsoever.  However, I still don't know why this might be better or any sort of advantage, which is primarily why I posted here.  Unfortunately, I no longer have these two SAA's to check this out, but I'd bet that the safety notch was still there as I am most certain that the hammers were not replaced.  Frankly, I think he set up the bolt drop and the final cock click to happen at the same time, but I guess I need to study up a bit on how the SAA action really is supposed to work.  In any case, thanks for the input!  

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2 hours ago, Bison Bud said:

This is very interesting!  While I understand the safety notch thing, I still have to wonder why I sent two USFA Rodeos to a local Cowboy action gunsmith that were clearly 4 click and after he worked on them they were clearly 3 click.  When I asked him about that he said that they were set up so that the last two clicks happened at the same time and that was the way he set them up for cowboy action.  I thought it odd at the time, but the guns worked just fine and I shot them for two full seasons without any issues whatsoever.  However, I still don't know why this might be better or any sort of advantage, which is primarily why I posted here.  Unfortunately, I no longer have these two SAA's to check this out, but I'd bet that the safety notch was still there as I am most certain that the hammers were not replaced.  Frankly, I think he set up the bolt drop and the final cock click to happen at the same time, but I guess I need to study up a bit on how the SAA action really is supposed to work.  In any case, thanks for the input!  

Click 1 = safety notch. click 2 = bolt releases cylinder. click 3 = bolt locks cylinder. click 4 = hammer locks in sear. I'm not a gunsmith so not sure that 3 and 4 could be timed to happen together. He could have just ground off the safety notch on the hammer, I have heard some do that since no one actually uses it in CAS, and it is unreliable.

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Bud, just a guess, but could the gunsmith have taken the gun from 5 clicks to 4?  SAA-style guns that are not timed properly may have 5 clicks .  As mentioned, the bolt popping up and hitting the cylinder is click 3.  Click 4 should be the bolt dropping from the lead-in ramp into the notch on the cylinder and the hammer going to full cock (trigger sear pops into full cock notch) at the same time.  Sometimes those last two don't happen together, giving the 5 clicks.  Hard to imagine the smith grinding off the safety notches, although some people do that on their rifles to keep the hammer from catching on that notch as it falls in fast shooting.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Bison Bud said:

This is very interesting!  While I understand the safety notch thing, I still have to wonder why I sent two USFA Rodeos to a local Cowboy action gunsmith that were clearly 4 click and after he worked on them they were clearly 3 click.  ..  

 

In a traditional-style "4 click", the first click is the Safety notch, as Ranger Dan said.  it happens when the hammer face is only about 1/8" away from fully seated, with the hammer face still within the sides of the hammer slot in the frame.  I bet that's where you heard the first click on those re-worked guns.  The second click is the half-cock position, which is where you can spin the cylinder freely and open the loading gate for loading/unloading.  With the "3 click" version we talk about, the first click, and the first place the hammer actually stops, is the half-cock position I just described.

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The hammer safety that Uberti has come up with is genius in it's own right. However, there's been problems, methinks they didn't research it long enough. I have one that I passed on to my son. He doesn't shoot cowboy but he wanted an Old West gun. Betwen me and him there's about 300 rounds through it and so far so good! No light strikes or FTF.

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9 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The hammer safety that Uberti has come up with is genius in it's own right. However, there's been problems, methinks they didn't research it long enough. I have one that I passed on to my son. He doesn't shoot cowboy but he wanted an Old West gun. Betwen me and him there's about 300 rounds through it and so far so good! No light strikes or FTF.

Uberti made an announcement saying that the company that provided the pin for the safety device had issues with the hardening process and they had used it for a while before finding out. Any newer versions should not have the same issues as the first batch released. 

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From the Uberti Website:

 

The Uberti Cattleman II with retractable firing pin is a breakthrough for those seeking enhanced safety with regard to original Old West revolvers without sacrificing the visual authenticity of a 1st-generation Colt.

As any cowboy knows, the safest way to carry a single-action is with the hammer resting on an unloaded chamber. This is true even for the Uberti retractable firing pin design. But in the case of the Uberti design, the risk of accidental discharge is reduced: the firing pin is not locked into the firing position unless the trigger is pulled.

This enhanced safety feature is available without a visible transfer bar safety, which those who insist on visual authenticity might not want. In other words, from the outside this revolver’s looks and operation are identical to those of an original.

 

1. While at rest, the firing pin floats free in its guide, exerting no pressure towards the chamber.

1873_cattleman_ii_revolver_action_1.jpg.48fdd6f94f3e35bb5d1f530da6ffc85f.jpg

 

2. With the hammer at full cock, the sear shifts into position to engage the firing pin once the trigger is pulled.

1873_cattleman_ii_revolver_action_2.jpg.1ba5ac61e68a6d5e6a4a71fa1306c6b7.jpg

 

3. When the trigger is pulled from a fully-cocked position, the sear engages the firing pin, locking it in the forward position until the trigger is released.

1873_cattleman_ii_revolver_action_3.jpg.f0db66da30ba39df3416bc210597eb84.jpg

 

I appreciate them trying to make the lawyers and Cowboys happy at the same time....Like that could happen!

B)

 

Asa

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Posted (edited)

Another quick way to check if your saa clone is a 3 click without even touching it (pictures on GunBroker, etc) is to look at the trigger. If the hammer is down and the trigger is sitting halfway in the middle of the trigger guard, it's a 3 click safety hammer. You can pull that trigger with the hammer down and feel the spring of the rod inside the hammer. If the trigger in the picture is sitting to the rear of the trigger guard, then it's a normal 4 click hammer. 

If you don't purchase the "kit" from Taylors, you can do what I did and purchase a hammer, new firing pin, firing pin retaining pin from VTI or EMF (the Pietta parts store). You can use the same trigger, you'll just have to grind off the arm that pushes the safety rod on the old hammer. You also may have to file 1/16 or shorter off the new firing pin, or you might get punctured primers. I believe you can use the dime test to verify proper length.

Edited by JackSlade
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