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1880 1873 and cowboy loads?


Mezcal Charlie

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I recently acquired an 1873 Winchester made in 1880 and while it has some ugly on the outside someone tried to re blue and did a terrible job, new Marlin front and rear sight, it’s a shooter. Action is tight and been slicked, 44-40 barrel has been relined from the Breech and wood is solid. That said I have a couple questions:

 

1. While I wouldn’t shoot modern loads in a black powder gun, can you shoot light cowboy loads? Or do I need to make this my black powder only rifle?

 

2. There is a gunsmith I work with that reblues to factory looking finish. He’s a master. Since the barrel has been relined and the last blue job polished off a lot of the stamping, would it really matter to te-blue to protect what’s there? It is ruined as a collectible and I want to shoot it. 
 

3. Does anyone restore or trace engrave the original writing on the barrel?

 

As always thanks in advance for your input and for those offended by my questions or someone’s answers, breathe deep and relax all is well.  

 

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Turnbull has many reproduction roll stamps. But, it is going to cost more than the gun is worth. I have seen guns that someone has hand chased the lettering, it looks like someone hand chased them. Check into 5744 loads for a .44-40. It replicates blackpowder pressures for the .45-70 and other larger cartridges but I don’t remember if it works for the smaller cases. 

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It started it's journey as a Black Powder Rifle.  Black Powder and Smokeless powder, regardless of pressure levels, spike pressure very differently.  A given smokeless load may well replicate the velocity of the original BP load, without some very expensive ballistic equipment, the pressure spikes are basically unknown.

 

From the standpoint of a retired Gunplumber.  It started as a Black Powder rifle, was never made nor proofed for smokeless and as such should remain a Black Powder rifle.  Just about any BP load you might want to shoot should be safe, however, I'd error on the side of caution and reduce bullet weight and perhaps reduce the powder charge.

 

Your rifle has just about ZERO collector value.  If you wish to Gussie it up with a new professional blue job, go for it.  It is after all, your rifle.  Have fun with it.  

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I have a concern on some of the details on your desired re-blue. I'm not experienced in the barrel reline process, however I have looked at the instructions from Track of the Wolf and watched a few videos on the process. 

 

After a re-line, I'd be a bit hesitant to use some blueing processes. My concern would be the high heat and/or the caustic nature of the process. You do not want to melt any solder, if any was used, and you do not want caustic salts in the joint between the liner and barrel.

 

On the over polishing, I hear you. We had a gunsmith in our area the did show quality blueing, but he was very heavy handed with polishing. The metal is gone. 20 or more years since he left us, and you can still spot his blue jobs at gunshows, by the BLUE color and the polishing. 

 

If it were mine, I think I'd be tempted to do some cold blueing. I have done a few and was happy with the look and the protection it afforded. Not all cold blue products are the same, and depending on the metal, some do a better job. I just buy several products and test each out. One usually works. 

 

Degrease first, acetone or alcohol, wash with hot water, towel off and apply the blueing on the hot (warm) metal. Card with 4-0 steel wool. repeat until it looks good. to you.

 

Post a picture, my visualization of you description may not mirror reality. 

 

Cerakote? 

 

BB

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What BB said on cold blueing.  Start there.  It is cheap and easy. Mine have looked good and held up SO much better than I expected. I use perma blue, but it is the only brand I have tried. Others could be better. Warm metal holds great. Start on an out of the way part. If u don't like it then take it to a pro.  You are only out $12 bucks for the blueing and 30 minutes of time. I think it will look more 'cowboy' than a full pro job, especially on a vintage rifle. 

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On 4/29/2022 at 12:53 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

It started it's journey as a Black Powder Rifle.  Black Powder and Smokeless powder, regardless of pressure levels, spike pressure very differently.  A given smokeless load may well replicate the velocity of the original BP load, without some very expensive ballistic equipment, the pressure spikes are basically unknown.

 

From the standpoint of a retired Gunplumber.  It started as a Black Powder rifle, was never made nor proofed for smokeless and as such should remain a Black Powder rifle.  Just about any BP load you might want to shoot should be safe, however, I'd error on the side of caution and reduce bullet weight and perhaps reduce the powder charge.

 

Your rifle has just about ZERO collector value.  If you wish to Gussie it up with a new professional blue job, go for it.  It is after all, your rifle.  Have fun with it.  

 

Winchester used Dupont #2 smokeless powder from 1895 to 1925. Winchester used Sharpshooter powder in the 44 WHV loads from 1903 to 1945. This chart should reflect from such smokeless powders. My early black powder (1873-1883 replicated) tests resulted in 14,000 psi loads which should be close to 17,000 cup. As the cartridge cases improved in design, my same tested loads reduced in pressures down to 12,000psi and then eventually 8,953psi (1,226fps) using modern Starline brass.  11,000psi/13,000 cup is modern SAAMI max. So it seems plausible to me that early 44-40 black powders loads actually produced much higher pressures than todays smokeless loads but also produced a lower pressure curve. The pressures curves I have seen with my tests are not spiky until trying to load for original velocities with pistol powers or hotter rifles powders like 2400 and IMR4227. All modern published loads from Lyman's 49th showed no signs of pressure "spikes".

126925066_2821799688141960_4630055572034977314_n.jpg

 

 

1895 Smokeless Powder box by Winchester
Winchester used Dupont #2 smokeless powder from 1895 to 1925, reported to produce less pressures than black powder loads. Winchester switched to Dupont Sharpshooter powder in 1925. Winchester had already been using Sharpshooter powder in the 1903 to 1945 44 WHV loads.

1895 TOP.jpg

IMG_3431.JPG

 

 

When Winchester first manufactured the 44 WHV loads, they advertised "Low Pressure" right on the box. Pressures from the chart show 18,000cup which should be close to 15,228psi, but yet not to be used in the 73' or pistols. Why? Seems this adds up to what I described...early BP loads produced higher pressures but with less pressure curve than todays lower pressure SAAMI max loads. I believe there is a lot of misinformation about the 44-40 pressures, from original BP/smokeless loads to modern BP/smokeless loads.

 

1909 10-9 HV a.png

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We can compare those with Trail Boss loads

 

6.4gr and 9.3gr

 

 

12.jpg19.jpg

 

Here is a group
Test 43 used original pre-1884 unheadstamped cases. Same load in modern Starline brass is only 8,953psi @ 1,226fps
 

PSITESTS.jpg

 

And for those that do like Trail Boss, here is that  9.3gr Test 19 again. This time I overlayed the pressure curves to represent a what a consistent ignition would have looked like, which would be about the same as 10gr of Unique in Test 14.

 

The time at the bottom of the scale is from 0 to 0.5 milliseconds. 
 

19.jpg19B.jpg

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My original 1873s were all 1888-1892 and in .32 and .38WCF.  These are third series all-steel guns.  

I shoot BP and mild smokeless in the .32 since it has more steel and a lesser powder charge.

I shoot only BP or mild Trailboss loads in the .38/40.  

All four of mine are shooter-grade, have rough bores and can shoot <2" at 50 yards.

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