Currahee Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 Looking at an old Stevens double, am wondering what would happen if it were to be cut off. The thing gets in the way; but is it necessary to the safe shooting of the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 From a Chuck Hawks article "Double gun Terminology" Doll's head: Designed by Westley Richards, the doll's head is a compact top rib extension that fits into the top tang. It uses no bolt and does not serve to prevent the barrels from rotating open about the hinge pin. However, it does strengthen the action by resisting the force upon firing that attempts to break the action bar where it meets the standing breech. This is the point of greatest stress when a break-open action gun is fired and the Doll's head is an effective reinforcement. The famous American Parker action used a doll's head, as have some guns from such famous British makers as Westley Richards and Charles Boswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 Many folks do not believe it to add much additional strength to the lockup. As you can tell from current design approaches that have NOT included a doll's head at the breech of the barrel set, at least modern guns can get away without them. I have reduced the "ears" greatly on one Ithaca double I have, and it still works well. All that is left is a nub to just fit the neck of the recess and nothing is left to contact the standing breech where the ears of the head were. Even that nub is streamlined to have little to catch a shell being loaded. If you still have a good hinge fit and no side-to-side slop with the gun close to engaging the recess, I would not be afraid of cutting most or all of it out of the way. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 9 minutes ago, Currahee said: Looking at an old Stevens double, am wondering what would happen if it were to be cut off. The thing gets in the way; but is it necessary to the safe shooting of the gun? Gut reaction is to look further. IMO, cutting things off guns is almost never a wonderful idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 I'm certainly not positive about this, but I'm thinking that if the top of the doll's head is cut completely off, it will leave a small area where the side of the shell is not supported, and the shell will expand into that void. This could make for hard extraction and/or shells that can't be reloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 On some Stevens shotguns, the Dolls Head is also part of the locking lug for the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Guns that do not have the doll's head feature have other features to strengthen the action. Guns that have the doll's head feature have it for a reason. Alter the gun's receiver at your own risk. Better choice if you don't like it would be to get a different gun, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: if the top of the doll's head is cut completely off, it will leave a small area where the side of the shell is not supported, and the shell will expand into that void. Nope. Better take a look at a real doll's head extension. It is an extension of the rib. Not a part of either chamber. To cut into the chamber, one would have to cut more metal than the rib. You would have to cut chamber walls. This is not a possibility of happening if you can examine the design. We remove chamber wall material when coning the breech of a double. Never heard anyone complain that weakened the gun. Coning can slightly, and it certainly can ruin the head spacing, since the rim of a shotshell is the head space location. If really concerned, leave enough of the rib to match the height of the extractor. Not even the rim of the shotshell would be unsupported if you do that. (And that is less metal than I left on the Ithaca double described above.) good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 13 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Nope. Better take a look at a real doll's head extension. It is an extension of the rib. Not a part of either chamber. To cut into the chamber, one would have to cut more metal than the rib. You would have to cut chamber walls. This is not a possibility of happening if you can examine the design.... Okay, thanks. I thought maybe I had the wrong idea of what a Dolls Head was, and I guess I did. I was thinking that was the name given to the large extractors that are almost as wide on top as on bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Interesting comments. 'Since I do not have a dolls head and not sure that I ever have looked at one, any pictures to help us understand what the heck you are talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Some places they are Dolls Chins. I have had several fine shotguns with this feature, Ithaca, Fox, HuGlu, Stevens, etc. They are fine for hunting, but I could not use them for SASS. Another reason to buy more guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Doll's head extension of the rib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend P. Babcock Chase Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Howdy alll, One can clearly see from Nostrum's photo the "doll's head" shown is clearly part of the lock up of the gun. Some don't "key" into the receiver but have a horizontal cut that is engaged by the opening lever when the action is closed. I would never remove that part of the gun as every one that I have seen is an integral part of the lock up. I have some shotguns that have a "rib extension" or doll's head and some that don't. I have broken the edges of the doll's head to keep shells from catching on the edges. Rather than risking the integrity of the gun's lock up, I would suggest more practice or getting another shotgun (always a good idea). Rev. Chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 On my L.C. Smiths and my Husqvarna's it is very much a part of the lock-up/safety. I always felt it helped keep the shells separated when loading, so not a hindrance. Depends on your method, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 No matter what I think, liability forces me to advise not cutting it off. Cutting it off wouldn't improve that Stevens enough to be worth the trouble. It is not a fast gun to start with and the little time you save in loading, without the dolls head, would be insignificant. Johnny Meadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said: No matter what I think, liability forces me to advise not cutting it off. Cutting it off wouldn't improve that Stevens enough to be worth the trouble. It is not a fast gun to start with and the little time you save in loading, without the dolls head, would be insignificant. Johnny Meadows THIS ^^^^ You have also removed the likely hood of ever selling the firearm to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 And while I think the doll's head always serves an intended function, even if you assume that it doesn't do all that much under normal shooting conditions, what would happen when that one shell that you accidentally double-charged is fired and the chamber is enormously over-pressured? Impossible, you say? I won't bet my face or eyesight or life that I will never accidentally make that mistake, even though I've loaded thousands and thousands of 12 gauge shell and not made it yet. I've had a few duds that were primed but I didn't charge at all, so I can't say it will never happen that I would double-charge a hull when reloading, and fail to notice when inserting the wad, or shot, or during crimping. Sure, it isn't at all likely, and the error would require a number of failures on my part, but I never say never and act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currahee Posted April 28, 2022 Author Share Posted April 28, 2022 4 hours ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said: No matter what I think, liability forces me to advise not cutting it off. Cutting it off wouldn't improve that Stevens enough to be worth the trouble. It is not a fast gun to start with and the little time you save in loading, without the dolls head, would be insignificant. Johnny Meadows Thanks, Johnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe PLUS TWO AND A BUNCH for Johnny Meadows YOU BETCHA I have two High End Hammer Doubles that have an extension from the back of the barrels into the Standing Breach. Other than alignment, the extensions do absolutely nothing. They just mime a Greener, but without the upper cross bolt. Just so happens, I shoot All Brass 12Ga hulls. Plus I'm Old and Beat Up. No longer described as "fast" for that little extension just serves to keep my hulls separated when I load. I'm no faster with or without. As a point, I might make mention, after the breach of a double gun has been "funneled" it will have ZERO resale value to anyone other than a cowboy shooter. No other double gunner will touch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 OK, thanks to all on the pictures. Very helpful. .Always used pumps before getting into this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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