Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

44 Rimfire, 44 Rimfire long and 44 Henry Flat: Original Carrier Length, Henry 1860 and Winchester 1866.


"Big Boston"

Recommended Posts

Just one of those nagging details that keeps me awake at night, almost. 

 

The Henry rifle was designed to shoot 44 Rimfire ammunition. It had a bullet around 200 grains and a charge of around 25 grains of black powder. I've not found a definitive spec for the cartridge but a later version, the 44 Henry Flat was 1.346" in OAL.

 

386604426_44HenryFlat.thumb.jpg.78d65e2a2d181ab87569b628f0e714b7.jpg889906659_44HenryFlatdimensions.jpg.a1ec2c367d7ac7540c58b442ecd2c97c.jpg

 

This cartridge was what Colt chambered their 1871-1872 open tops in, and it was also the cartridge used in the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Winchester. 

 

So my question would be, what was the length of carrier (or the opening for the carrier, depending on how you spec these) ? I read somewhere that when Uberti first made the '66 the carrier was short. So, for no particular reason, I'd like to know what was the max length cartridge you could use in a Henry rifle?

 

Thanks, BB 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good Question actually.  I never had an opportunity or reason to actually measure the Carrier Block on an Original Henry or 1866.  Based strictly on experience with the modern Replicants, I would estimate the cartridge was already at the maximum length for reliability.  Might actually function with an overall length two or three Thou longer.  Maybe.  Almost.  Just About.  That's a WAG after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in your Rifle?   you may want to look for 41 colt ammo.    that 41 short  Colt ammo is made for the 41 DA 1877   aka thunder.   it uses an outside lubed bullet.  and the bullet is the same diameter as the outside of the case,  much the same as a  .22 lr.   the .41 colt looks to be  more like the  .41 mag.   I shoot my  .41 1877 DA  often, but it does use a heeled bullet,      my 2 cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On this site my search picked up this:

 

Uberti - IT, (ubertireplicas.it), replied to my email:

"... With regards to your questions, I can only tell you that these various modifications were made before 1994.  We don't have the exact date."

Lever, carrier, and groove diameter changes.  Did not ask about mainspring tensioner.

Also,

Uberti/Navy Arms 1866 #14XX: Proof 1968, safety, carrier length= 1.515", bore

Uberti/Navy Arms 1866 #3XX:  Proof 1967, safety

 

In addition my research into the 44 Henry cartridges, yes there were several, seems to indicate the length of the longest 44 Henry cartridge was 1.385". the latest version was a berdan primed centerfire cartridge made in or for Brazil. Bullet diameter was 0.440 max to match the 0.440' groove diameter. The bore was 0.420", making the lands 0.010", rather deep rifling. 

 

It would then appear as if the progression to the next 44 caliber rifle cartridge, the 44 WCF, used the same(ish) bore, 0.420" and the rifling was shallow, This morphed somewhat and has become the current 44 Caliber family. 

 

Caveat; All this information is internet information, it is probably fact, but may not be. 

 

Time to lay this one to rest. I've purchased a used pair of Uberti Colt 1871/1872 early models chambered in 45 Schofield. Those will require some load development and some range time to get them running. I dabbled in 45 Schofield some a few years back for my 45 Colt. Unfortunately my best load was with Trail Boss, so it's back to square one now. My first load with Clays was not a winner,IMHO. Powder position sensitive and large(ish) Es/Sd. 

 

BB

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

66, early short Uberti, late long Uberti.

 

 

P1000099.jpeg

 

Thank-you, that does fill in some of the blanks. Would you mind measuring those for future reference. 

 

From the cartridge lengths and comparative heights I'd guess that the original 66 is only around 1.4" long. The early Uberti seems correct for the stated 1.515 in the earlier post, and of course 1.6" for the current model. 

 

IMHO a Uberti 66 in 38 Long Colt with a 1.4" carrier would be a slick rifle. It wouldn't need a short stroke kit. 

 

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

...IMHO a Uberti 66 in 38 Long Colt with a 1.4" carrier would be a slick rifle. It wouldn't need a short stroke kit. ..

 

The carrier still has to travel the same distance up and down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

The carrier still has to travel the same distance up and down.

 

I was looking at the stroke the bolt would have to travel, it would be 1.4/1.6 (87%) less travel. The carrier snaps up and snaps down, it is activated by the lever, but the travel of the carrier is not actuated by the lever. Timing would be different. At least that's how my brain visualizes it. 

 

BB

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bailey Creek 

 

Not Quite.  Winchester never produced a "Central Fire" Henry rifle.  At the end of the 1866 production life, the 1866 was chambered in 44 Henry Central Fire for export only.  Those guns were never offered domestically.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy

 

A few photos. I have one original Henry Rimfire Flat cartridge in my collection, and one of what I have always assumed is the slightly longer version.

 

pn4ECEOwj

 

 

poOghaQsj

 

 

 

 

According to the U on the headstamps I assume both of these were made by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company.

 

pn26awHfj

 

 

Some dimensions. Bear in mind, this is only a sample of one of each cartridge, and the Henry Flat is a little bit beat up, it is probably well over 150 years old, so I did the best I could with these dimensions.

 

First, the longer cartridge:

 

OAL 1.531

Rim Diameter .517

Rim Thickness .063

Bullet Diameter ..433

Case Diameter .434

 

The Henry Flat:

OAL 1.333

Rim Diameter .520

Rim Thickness .065

Bullet Diameter .438

Case Diameter .440

 

 

According to Les Quick, in his monumental book The Story of Benjamin Tyler Henry and his Famed Repeating Rifle, the original cartridge for the Henry rifle used a conical bullet weighing 216 grains. There were 26 grains of powder inside. "Shortly thereafter", according to Quick (he does not give a date) the bullet shape and weight was changed to a 200 grain flat nosed bullet,

 

In his book The Historic Henry Rifle, Wiley Sword goes into some specific detail about the difficulties manufacturing the cartridges for the Henry rifle. As early as November 25, 1862 Oliver Winchester admitted that "they had made a mistake in not developing a stronger cartridge." Bear in mind, the Henry rifle did not go into full production until sometime in 1862, even though it had been patented in 1860. The use of a longer cartridge with more powder inside would have increased the penetration of the Henry Flat, but this would also have limited the magazine capacity to 13 or 14 cartridges, so the derision was made to keep the 'shorter' cartridge, with a magazine capacity of 15 cartridges.

 

There were other difficulties. In early May, 1863, the factory making the cartridges blew up. Cartridge production was moved to a new facility and production resumed during the first week in June. A new New Haven city ordinance after the explosion required powder could no longer be stored in kegs, but must be stored in one pound canisters. This had a significant impact on production time. At the time the factory was consuming 40 to 50 one pound canisters of powder per day. Winchester planned on a new facility that could turn out 20,000 cartridges per day. Winchester began speculating again about  a more powerful cartridge, but that never happened.

 

 

I have been lucky enough to handle several original Henry rifles over the years, but have never had a measuring tape with me when I did. Anyway, here is a photo of the underside of an original Henry rifle, showing the cartridge carrier.

 

po5vgvFlj

 

 

 

 

Here is the underside of my Uberti replica 44-4 1860 Iron Frame Henry. Clearly the carrier is much larger.

 

pnvy2lwXj

 

 

 

 

A number of years ago I was at an auction where some antique ammo was being auctioned off. There was a complete box of Henry 44 Rimfire Cartridges in the auction. It was a silent auction, so I had to write down a bid. I screwed up my courage and wrote down $150 for the box. I was a bit disappointed when I learned the box had sold for over $400. It was a long time ago, but that is how much I seem to remember that box went for.

 

Frankly, I have never quite understood those who want to see the reproduction Henry rifles chambered for a cartridge that resembles the original 44 Henry Flat in length. It really was a pipsqueak cartridge. I have always liked shooting my 44-40 Henry with cartridges loaded with Black Powder.

 

pmPwzFcrj

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zackerly.    have 'em make one in .44 Russian.    More power and center fire ta boot.  then you can load with the Holy Black if you want, or that Heathen New Fangled stuff that is a passing fadd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Big Boston

 

Not Quite.  The distance of travel for the Carrier Block is the same, regardless of the length of the carrier block.  The Carrier Block is propelled up by the Carrier Block Arm which is actuated buy a "step" on the lever.  Timing is adjusted by changing the position of the step, changing the base of the Arm or (ugh) bending the lever.

 

The lever powers the Carrier Block Arm to raise the carrier.  Carrier Block is powered down by the Lever Side Spring.  The lever itself only "taps" the carrier block arm to start the down travel of the carrier block.  Actually a really really simple system.

 

Seven

 

Simply done.  All you need is an 1866 or Henry reproduction in .44 Special and a custom Smith Shop Carrier Block made for short cartridges.  That same carrier block can be used for Cowboy 45 Special as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.