"Big Boston" Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Just one of those nagging details that keeps me awake at night, almost. The Henry rifle was designed to shoot 44 Rimfire ammunition. It had a bullet around 200 grains and a charge of around 25 grains of black powder. I've not found a definitive spec for the cartridge but a later version, the 44 Henry Flat was 1.346" in OAL. This cartridge was what Colt chambered their 1871-1872 open tops in, and it was also the cartridge used in the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Winchester. So my question would be, what was the length of carrier (or the opening for the carrier, depending on how you spec these) ? I read somewhere that when Uberti first made the '66 the carrier was short. So, for no particular reason, I'd like to know what was the max length cartridge you could use in a Henry rifle? Thanks, BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 Good Question actually. I never had an opportunity or reason to actually measure the Carrier Block on an Original Henry or 1866. Based strictly on experience with the modern Replicants, I would estimate the cartridge was already at the maximum length for reliability. Might actually function with an overall length two or three Thou longer. Maybe. Almost. Just About. That's a WAG after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Creek,5759 Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 At the end of the run for the 66. Winchester produced a centerfire 44 Henry. When Henry Firearms started producing the 1860 Henry. I wish they would of offered it in the 44 Henry, instead of the 44-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 in your Rifle? you may want to look for 41 colt ammo. that 41 short Colt ammo is made for the 41 DA 1877 aka thunder. it uses an outside lubed bullet. and the bullet is the same diameter as the outside of the case, much the same as a .22 lr. the .41 colt looks to be more like the .41 mag. I shoot my .41 1877 DA often, but it does use a heeled bullet, my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted April 23, 2022 Author Share Posted April 23, 2022 On this site my search picked up this: Uberti - IT, (ubertireplicas.it), replied to my email: "... With regards to your questions, I can only tell you that these various modifications were made before 1994. We don't have the exact date." Lever, carrier, and groove diameter changes. Did not ask about mainspring tensioner. Also, Uberti/Navy Arms 1866 #14XX: Proof 1968, safety, carrier length= 1.515", bore Uberti/Navy Arms 1866 #3XX: Proof 1967, safety In addition my research into the 44 Henry cartridges, yes there were several, seems to indicate the length of the longest 44 Henry cartridge was 1.385". the latest version was a berdan primed centerfire cartridge made in or for Brazil. Bullet diameter was 0.440 max to match the 0.440' groove diameter. The bore was 0.420", making the lands 0.010", rather deep rifling. It would then appear as if the progression to the next 44 caliber rifle cartridge, the 44 WCF, used the same(ish) bore, 0.420" and the rifling was shallow, This morphed somewhat and has become the current 44 Caliber family. Caveat; All this information is internet information, it is probably fact, but may not be. Time to lay this one to rest. I've purchased a used pair of Uberti Colt 1871/1872 early models chambered in 45 Schofield. Those will require some load development and some range time to get them running. I dabbled in 45 Schofield some a few years back for my 45 Colt. Unfortunately my best load was with Trail Boss, so it's back to square one now. My first load with Clays was not a winner,IMHO. Powder position sensitive and large(ish) Es/Sd. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 66, early short Uberti, late long Uberti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted April 23, 2022 Author Share Posted April 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: 66, early short Uberti, late long Uberti. Thank-you, that does fill in some of the blanks. Would you mind measuring those for future reference. From the cartridge lengths and comparative heights I'd guess that the original 66 is only around 1.4" long. The early Uberti seems correct for the stated 1.515 in the earlier post, and of course 1.6" for the current model. IMHO a Uberti 66 in 38 Long Colt with a 1.4" carrier would be a slick rifle. It wouldn't need a short stroke kit. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said: ...IMHO a Uberti 66 in 38 Long Colt with a 1.4" carrier would be a slick rifle. It wouldn't need a short stroke kit. .. The carrier still has to travel the same distance up and down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 Would a short-frame 1860 and 1866 be cool in .44 Russian or .45 Cowboy Special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted April 23, 2022 Author Share Posted April 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: The carrier still has to travel the same distance up and down. I was looking at the stroke the bolt would have to travel, it would be 1.4/1.6 (87%) less travel. The carrier snaps up and snaps down, it is activated by the lever, but the travel of the carrier is not actuated by the lever. Timing would be different. At least that's how my brain visualizes it. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 Bailey Creek Not Quite. Winchester never produced a "Central Fire" Henry rifle. At the end of the 1866 production life, the 1866 was chambered in 44 Henry Central Fire for export only. Those guns were never offered domestically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 Howdy A few photos. I have one original Henry Rimfire Flat cartridge in my collection, and one of what I have always assumed is the slightly longer version. According to the U on the headstamps I assume both of these were made by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company. Some dimensions. Bear in mind, this is only a sample of one of each cartridge, and the Henry Flat is a little bit beat up, it is probably well over 150 years old, so I did the best I could with these dimensions. First, the longer cartridge: OAL 1.531 Rim Diameter .517 Rim Thickness .063 Bullet Diameter ..433 Case Diameter .434 The Henry Flat: OAL 1.333 Rim Diameter .520 Rim Thickness .065 Bullet Diameter .438 Case Diameter .440 According to Les Quick, in his monumental book The Story of Benjamin Tyler Henry and his Famed Repeating Rifle, the original cartridge for the Henry rifle used a conical bullet weighing 216 grains. There were 26 grains of powder inside. "Shortly thereafter", according to Quick (he does not give a date) the bullet shape and weight was changed to a 200 grain flat nosed bullet, In his book The Historic Henry Rifle, Wiley Sword goes into some specific detail about the difficulties manufacturing the cartridges for the Henry rifle. As early as November 25, 1862 Oliver Winchester admitted that "they had made a mistake in not developing a stronger cartridge." Bear in mind, the Henry rifle did not go into full production until sometime in 1862, even though it had been patented in 1860. The use of a longer cartridge with more powder inside would have increased the penetration of the Henry Flat, but this would also have limited the magazine capacity to 13 or 14 cartridges, so the derision was made to keep the 'shorter' cartridge, with a magazine capacity of 15 cartridges. There were other difficulties. In early May, 1863, the factory making the cartridges blew up. Cartridge production was moved to a new facility and production resumed during the first week in June. A new New Haven city ordinance after the explosion required powder could no longer be stored in kegs, but must be stored in one pound canisters. This had a significant impact on production time. At the time the factory was consuming 40 to 50 one pound canisters of powder per day. Winchester planned on a new facility that could turn out 20,000 cartridges per day. Winchester began speculating again about a more powerful cartridge, but that never happened. I have been lucky enough to handle several original Henry rifles over the years, but have never had a measuring tape with me when I did. Anyway, here is a photo of the underside of an original Henry rifle, showing the cartridge carrier. Here is the underside of my Uberti replica 44-4 1860 Iron Frame Henry. Clearly the carrier is much larger. A number of years ago I was at an auction where some antique ammo was being auctioned off. There was a complete box of Henry 44 Rimfire Cartridges in the auction. It was a silent auction, so I had to write down a bid. I screwed up my courage and wrote down $150 for the box. I was a bit disappointed when I learned the box had sold for over $400. It was a long time ago, but that is how much I seem to remember that box went for. Frankly, I have never quite understood those who want to see the reproduction Henry rifles chambered for a cartridge that resembles the original 44 Henry Flat in length. It really was a pipsqueak cartridge. I have always liked shooting my 44-40 Henry with cartridges loaded with Black Powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 Zackerly. have 'em make one in .44 Russian. More power and center fire ta boot. then you can load with the Holy Black if you want, or that Heathen New Fangled stuff that is a passing fadd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 Big Boston Not Quite. The distance of travel for the Carrier Block is the same, regardless of the length of the carrier block. The Carrier Block is propelled up by the Carrier Block Arm which is actuated buy a "step" on the lever. Timing is adjusted by changing the position of the step, changing the base of the Arm or (ugh) bending the lever. The lever powers the Carrier Block Arm to raise the carrier. Carrier Block is powered down by the Lever Side Spring. The lever itself only "taps" the carrier block arm to start the down travel of the carrier block. Actually a really really simple system. Seven Simply done. All you need is an 1866 or Henry reproduction in .44 Special and a custom Smith Shop Carrier Block made for short cartridges. That same carrier block can be used for Cowboy 45 Special as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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