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Making Up Misses to Preserve a Clean Match


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im one that cares far more to get a clean match rather than a fast one [still workin on it] but im not in favor of this complication to a system thats working , as yule said a miss is a miss , i have no issue with bonus targets if you want 

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1 hour ago, Caladisi kid said:

How does a frontiersman cowboy reload on the line.......?

Two options:  1st, charge all six chambers on your pistols and have two chambers ready to cap on the line.  If practiced, doesn't take much longer than a cartridge shooter.  2nd,  carry all the fixin's to charge and cap your empty chamber on the clock.  Be prepared to have some time taken... 

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Double

Edited by Griff
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2 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

How does a frontiersman cowboy reload on the line.......?

 

SHB pg 13

Quote

If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped “on the clock” either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired. A complete reload for percussion revolver shooters is handled by staging a loaded, uncapped revolver down range or switching uncapped cylinders and capping on the clock. 

 

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 double & triple tap... 

Edited by Griff
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19 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

This...This...and more of This.

 

If someone's day is ruined by not shooting a clean match, I'd hate to see how their normal day is planned.

I think of that as a strawman. How many pack up and leave after one miss??

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If your club wants to have an "almost" award (or "one miss" award), by all means hand it out -- but it's not a clean match.

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4 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

I think of that as a strawman. How many pack up and leave after one miss??

 

Not me. I like to shoot more than one round at a match.

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11 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

If your club wants to have an "almost" award (or "one miss" award), by all means hand it out -- but it's not a clean match.

 

Call it the Maxwell Smart trophy.

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a miss is a miss, I'm not  a fan of shotgun flier misses being made up either and I don't  put make-ups into my stages.   it really dilutes the point of having a clean match.  If you have to make it up, you really didn't shoot it clean, you can kid yourself all you want but if you use a makeup target you didn't shoot it clean. that gets into the whole participation award conversation.   

 

    before anyone gets out the pitchforks and torches, I also do charity events where you can buy back your misses,  that's totally different because it is a big earner for charity, and the entire point of the match is to earn as much as possible. we also do matches where we do have make up, but not often

   I have nothing against those who want to shoot it clean, but dont cheapen the sport to get it that way

Edited by evil dogooder
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I’m not sure I’ve ever been to a CAS match I couldn’t have shot clean if that was my main intention.  Our targets are generous, to say the least!  I’d say definitely no make-ups for pistol or rifle except as exceptions.

 

For special targets, such as flying birds or maybe Texas Star, I agree with offering a make-up option.  Or not.  Sometimes we do one, sometimes the other.  Same with some plate racks.  I’ve written stages where we had to engage 5 plates, but rifle was only loaded with 5, but then you had the option of loading up to 3 extra to engage a make-up plate.  Variety being the spice of life and all.

 

I’ve shot one match that always offers miss tickets, but I’ve never bought one one as I never want to beat my competition because I bought misses. Just my thing and I don’t care if somebody else beats me because they did.  They know.

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I have seen a lot of cases where a clear hit on a pistol or rifle plate rack failed to take down the plate, or where a a hit on a T-Star failed to disengage the plate fully, for mechanical reasons.  

 

Virtually all of the matches I've entered have included make up shots (often with SG)  to clear mechanical or moving target "misses".  That includes club major annual matches, SASS State Matches, and SASS Regional Matches.  

 

I see "make-up shots" just as a tool in the match writer's toolbox to enable more difficult targets to be included in stages while preserving the fun for more of the shooters.  (The SHB does provide for any KD shotgun target to be re-engaged.)

 

   Whether we like it or not, the practice of allowing or requiring  make up shots on missed mechanical targets is probably here to stay.

 

I cannot recall any cases where loading and shooting a make up target could be done more rapidly than taking down the target with the initial engagement round.  

 

But I contrast the practice of allowing make-up shooting with the selling of "miss tickets" to buy out misses.   The latter changes the entire game demeanor, IMHO.

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18 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Plates not falling when hit on a plate rack or texas star is a different issue then just making up regular missed targets. 

 

 

Agree.  I've not seen misses on regular hanging flat plate targets allowed to be made up.  That, to me, would  defeat the basic game, just like miss tickets do, IMO.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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How about making everyone shoot a clean match, you have to keep going until you hit all the targets :) 

How much ammo would some need to carry , what would some times be , it could be kind of a punishment :) 

Cowboy masochist 

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12 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

How about making everyone shoot a clean match, you have to keep going until you hit all the targets :) 

How much ammo would some need to carry , what would some times be , it could be kind of a punishment :) 

Cowboy masochist 

We'd have to install lighting in our shooting bays and have a food vendor on hand

(3 weeks without food----).

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Seriously, IMO we don't need to look for reasons to fatten the already complex rule book(s). 

Some things, including match design, are best left to Match Director discretion.  If folks don't like it, they will address it at that level. 

 

There are just too many different types of matches, stages, targets and individual preferences to try to settle on one broad brush rule.  Again-Just my own opinion. 

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On 4/22/2022 at 5:18 PM, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Plates not falling when hit on a plate rack or texas star is a different issue then just making up regular missed targets. 

 

 

And may be corrected with the addition of a little more powder.:P

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43 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

And may be corrected with the addition of a little more powder.:P

Not necessarily.  In last year's Western Regional, on the shoot-offs, one very good shooter took 7 shotgun rounds to clear the last  plate from the T-Star.  He hit it solidly every shot, but the half dislodged plate at the bottom was leaning against the base frame.  

  

Also, beyond a point, "a bit more powder" increases chamber pressure but does not necessarily  increase muzzle velocity/power factor. 

 

Wind direction and velocity can also play a big role in plates falling easily or with more difficulty.   There really are a lot of variables. 

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On 4/22/2022 at 11:29 AM, evil dogooder said:

a miss is a miss, I'm not  a fan of shotgun flier misses being made up either and I don't  put make-ups into my stages.   it really dilutes the point of having a clean match.  If you have to make it up, you really didn't shoot it clean, you can kid yourself all you want but if you use a makeup target you didn't shoot it clean. that gets into the whole participation award conversation.   

 

    before anyone gets out the pitchforks and torches, I also do charity events where you can buy back your misses,  that's totally different because it is a big earner for charity, and the entire point of the match is to earn as much as possible. we also do matches where we do have make up, but not often

   I have nothing against those who want to shoot it clean, but dont cheapen the sport to get it that way

 

At a recent match there was a "knockdown, pop up" target.  A small water bottle was the pop up.  If the water bottle was missed, there was a make up target.  The problem is that the water bottle would be hit by a few pellets, but no obvious.  The shooter then would reload the shotgun for the makeup.  Upon reset/cleanup, it was noted that the water bottle was hit.  There were a bunch of reshoots on this stage.  Take out the make up shots, and it's no longer an issue.

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7 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

At a recent match there was a "knockdown, pop up" target.  A small water bottle was the pop up.  If the water bottle was missed, there was a make up target.  The problem is that the water bottle would be hit by a few pellets, but no obvious.  The shooter then would reload the shotgun for the makeup.  Upon reset/cleanup, it was noted that the water bottle was hit.  There were a bunch of reshoots on this stage.  Take out the make up shots, and it's no longer an issue.

I’m not sure that having a potential makeup available is what caused the problem. Perhaps clays would have served better?

 

From my perspective the advantage of a makeup in this situation isn’t the opportunity to stay ‘clean.’ I don’t care a lot about ‘clean’ other than the penalties associated with failing to stay clean. 
 

I like a makeup option because I know I can make up the missed flyer in significantly less than 5 seconds.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I’m not sure that having a potential makeup available is what caused the problem. Perhaps clays would have served better?

 

From my perspective the advantage of a makeup in this situation isn’t the opportunity to stay ‘clean.’ I don’t care a lot about ‘clean’ other than the penalties associated with failing to stay clean. 
 

I like a makeup option because I know I can make up the missed flyer in significantly less than 5 seconds.

 

The water bottles were an issue.  But considering rain, they worked better than clays would have in the conditions we had.

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10 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

At a recent match there was a "knockdown, pop up" target.  A small water bottle was the pop up.  If the water bottle was missed, there was a make up target.  The problem is that the water bottle would be hit by a few pellets, but no obvious.  The shooter then would reload the shotgun for the makeup.  Upon reset/cleanup, it was noted that the water bottle was hit.  There were a bunch of reshoots on this stage.  Take out the make up shots, and it's no longer an issue.

I have not seen any modern timers that cannot be backed up to exclude the last round recorded.  Wouldn't that work?

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6 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I have not seen any modern timers that cannot be backed up to exclude the last round recorded.  Wouldn't that work?

 

Unfortunately not.  Shotgun was often not the last gun fired.

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24 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Unfortunately not.  Shotgun was often not the last gun fired.

We've had some interesting stages that included fun make-ups.  

 

For example: 

 

1) Shooter starts in jail, Shoots out the (clay bird) door lock with pistol and exits jail.

2) Outside they use pistol to shoot 5 lynch mob members.  (must reload 1). 

3) Then with rifle they must clear the 10 prison guards on two 5-plate racks set downrange at 12 yds - restage rifle vertically in rack. 

4) Then they advance downrange, firing the shotgun at 3 pairs of knock-down  targets, from three different  downrange shooting positions. 

5) Second pistol is then used at a downrange position (5 yds from targets) to clear any guards still standing (i.e., misses) on the rifle rack. 

6) If all pistol rounds are not needed to clear plates, left-over  rounds go on a bonus plate for 1 sec each hit.  Misses on bonus plate are counted.  

 

Our posses had  great fun shooting this one, largely because of the downrange pistol clean up.  

 

My point is only that make-up shots and bonuses can be a fun feature and useful tool to match writers to make stages more interesting and fun.   

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On 4/21/2022 at 5:45 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

A legitimate sentiment, to be sure.   

Except that it's not always the case.   

 

The above mentioned way to clear a missed shotgun popper target sets the precedent.   The fact that it's sometimes done for certain shotgun targets sets the precedent and raises the question as to if there's a way to do it for the pistols and rifle.  Maybe there isn't, but perhaps there's a creative way that it could be done.

It's sometimes done to give shooters a chance to shoot a flying shotgun target! lots of shooters have never shot flying shot gun targets, and some have, and some do shoot clays and if you have not shot clays, it's  not as easy as it looks, The poppers are for fun and for that reason a shooter can make them if missed up! 

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The real solution would be to get rid of the make ups all together. No more shoot til its down with the shotgun. If it's up it's a miss. That erases the standard and deletes the need for this question. 

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Oh no, Oh no , Oh no no no no no no...................

 

There's a song like that!:lol:

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