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Making Up Misses to Preserve a Clean Match


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For some shooters, shooting a clean match is far more important that how they finish in the overall standings.    For some of the top tier shooters, a miss or three is not going to take them out of contention for that top spot.   But the fact remains that for some of us, going for that clean match is our main way to compete against ourselves and is what we strive for.

 

Getting that one miss can ruin such a shooters day.   But, what if there was a way to "make it up?"   I have been to many a match where a falling shotgun target threw up a popper, and if you missed it, there was an extra shotgun target to shoot at to "erase" the miss.  Is there a way to do something similar for pistol and even rifle targets?  One that would be totally optional that the "clean match" folks could take advantage of while the ones who go for speed above all else could just ignore and take this miss?   I believe there is.

 

Consider this line from the Shooter's Handbook:

 

Pocket pistols and Derringers are popular for use in side matches and are occasionally introduced as an additional firearm in main match stages.

 

Now, I have never been to a shoot where this has been done, but maybe this is the answer.   Off to the side of the regular pistol targets, have an extra "dump" target with a staged pocket pistol.  Theoretically, up to 5 pistol misses could be made up.  If there were no misses, the pocket pistol is not used.   Some extra care would have to be taken with moving pocket pistol to unloading table, but as long as the hammer is down on an empty chamber, or a spent cartridge, there should be no problems.

 

Something similar could be done for the rifles as well.  Off to the side of the rifle targets, have an extra "dump" target where the shooter will stage a single shot rifle in a pistol caliber along with some ammo.   This can be used to make up any rifle misses.

This has the benefit of allowing those who strive for a clean match to have a way to maintain it.   (And allow for more shooting!)  It would be completely optional, and shooters would even be free to not take advantage of it if they feel it would harm their overall time.   I doubt very much if it would affect the overall placement of shooters at the end of the day.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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A miss is a miss, no make ups. 

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9 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

A miss is a miss, no make ups. 

 

A legitimate sentiment, to be sure.   

Except that it's not always the case.   

 

The above mentioned way to clear a missed shotgun popper target sets the precedent.   The fact that it's sometimes done for certain shotgun targets sets the precedent and raises the question as to if there's a way to do it for the pistols and rifle.  Maybe there isn't, but perhaps there's a creative way that it could be done.

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Guess we’ll just disagree.

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Not everybody has a pocket pistol and a single shot pistol caliber rifle. Maybe an on the clock reload of the match gun. Would kill your time however, especially the pistol.

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So, set up matches so that as long as the shooter is willing to follow a make up procedure they can claim a 'clean' match.   And folks are going to strive to achieve this distinction?    I think at that point 'clean' matches would lose their significance to me.  

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This used to be a part of the SASS Championship Agreement:

Quote

SASS Sanctioned Championships at the State level or higher may not sell or incorporate in any other manner any score enhancing items such as “Free Misses” or “Do-Overs.”

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6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think at that point 'clean' matches would lose their significance to me. 

THIS ^^

 

Shooter A: "I shot a clean match today"

Shooter B: "But was it clean clean..?" :ph34r:

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And miss-makeup stuff adds to the time it takes to set up, explain stages and allow shooters to do extra things to protect themselves from their own haste in the first place.

 

If you DESPERATELY want a clean match , then shoot deliberately and only when you see the sights squarely on the target.

 

The game is what it is, a shooting competition.   If you want to win, work at it enough to do so,  and if you want to be clean, work at THAT enough to do so. 

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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I'm not a fan of shotgun pop ups as I shoot from the hip. But if it breaks when launched it's ok. :D  They often break, creating an unfair advantage. Pistol makeups to shoot clean? No

 

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49 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 I have been to many a match where a falling shotgun target threw up a popper, and if you missed it, there was an extra shotgun target to shoot at to "erase" the miss.

Most of the times I have seen this is was due to a bird flying and most of us don't see birds very often.  No reason to do the same for the pistol and rifle.  As said above, shoot how it is important to you -either as fast as you want to go or as fast as you can shot clean.

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In the way back machine... I once shot at a match... the first stage of the 2nd day the host club broke out all its goodies.  The stage consisted of:  main match revolver, main match rifle, main match shotgun... (at a time in which only one pistol was used).  Then, in addition, you had to throw a knife, a hatchet, shoot a bow & arrow, throw a lariat, a pocket pistol and a derringer, then add in a rifle caliber rifle.   Their stated intent was to make sure the "North Texas Boys" could not win "OUR" match.  31 years later and I have still not shot at the club again.  It wasn't so much the match... as it was their practicing the odd-ball, unexpected stuff for months before-hand.  The margaritas the night between shooting days didn't help any, even tho' those were supplied by one our club members!  :lol:

 

If you have to use a "make-up" to erase a miss, have you really shot "clean"?  

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No.  As Griff said above, once you need to "make up" a miss, it's still a miss.  Don't like the idea, never have. 

 

Also don't like the entire concept of the "bonus" shot for time.  A bonus for a ticket for a drawing, absolutely.  But that's another topic.

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Only shotgun miss makeups should be allowed.  If shooting rifle or pistols at knockdown targets that are hit but don't fall, makeups should be done with shotgun at a different target.

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Sometimes I shot clean knowing coaching from the TO kept me from getting a procedural. I will take the clean match award but do know the difference.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Novel idea but I'm against it.

 

You'd sure see a lot of people get faster at rifle reloads:D.

No doubt.  If rifle misses were made up via rifle reloads and pistols misses via pistol reloads I would have to take out my pistols and see how long it took, I already know the answer for the rifle.

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4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So, set up matches so that as long as the shooter is willing to follow a make up procedure they can claim a 'clean' match.   And folks are going to strive to achieve this distinction?    I think at that point 'clean' matches would lose their significance to me.  

 

This...This...and more of This.

 

If someone's day is ruined by not shooting a clean match, I'd hate to see how their normal day is planned.

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Try a no miss match during a monthly to get feedback.  Some will like it and some won't.

 

I went to a match like that but didn't know it was that kind of match until I got there. With whatever gun you missed with, you loaded another to try to hit the target. I purposely shot clean for real. Everyone shot clean for that match, got their little "clean match" pin and nobody got home before dark. Worst match I ever had the displeasure to attend.

 

Count me out.

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A couple years ago, at Christmas, the match director wanted everybody to shoot a clean match for Christmas, and asked me to figure out a way to write a match to satisfy that desire.

 

To do so, we offered a static plate. Every miss could be made up on the static plate with the shotgun.

 

You would have thought that we had 100% clean shooters.

 

We didn't. Ended up being not that much different than most of our monthly matches.

 

Folks either had more misses than they had shotgun shells, chose to not make up their misses, or had procedurals or other penalties that prevented them from shooting the match clean.

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I've shot a few matches where you could "make up" the miss by reloading the firearm with which you missed and reengaging the target.  Shooter's option.  Some did, some didn't.  Some good natured ribbing was involved.  I just thought it was a little extra fun to be had.  I admit I took advantage of it once or twice.  Once after I had already earned a "P" somewhere along the way so a clean match was never an option.  I was never concerned about the "clean" match.  I just didn't want to let some consarned target get away without getting dinged by me.  None of the above ever was rewarded with any kind of clean match tag.

 

If it bothers someone else that a person got a "clean match" by reloading and reshooting a target, I figure that's their problem, not mine.  I ain't about to get fussed over it.

 

We're all here to have fun, right?  I won't tell them that their fun is wrong.

 

Oh, yeah, I won't reload for a miss with a pistol.  Seems some folks get a little antsy waiting for a pard to reload a cap gun on the clock.  :D

 

Angus

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5 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So, set up matches so that as long as the shooter is willing to follow a make up procedure they can claim a 'clean' match.   And folks are going to strive to achieve this distinction?    I think at that point 'clean' matches would lose their significance to me.  

 

I gotta agree with this.   "Make ups" create an everyone-gets-a-trophy situation.   What makes the clean match satisfying is that it's difficult to accomplish.    

 

 

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We used to have an "Underwear Shoot" every summer.  It was a fun day filled with lots of laughs and some really crazy adaptations of underwear, swimwear, and sleepwear fo the era.  One year, we added one little word to the name of the match and had a "Clean Underwear Shoot".  This was the one time we also had make up targets worked into every scenario.  At the end of the day, those that shot clean also got a nice little hot pink laser engraved plaque (2"x2" in the shape of pantaloons) suitable for mounting on their guncart which said something like "I shot clean at the clean underwear shoot".  It was this was the only time we allowed all misses to be made up, and it truly was a fun day.  I suppose we might do it again some day.  We stopped having the underwear shoot because it conflicted with another club's annual that most of our regulary shooters attended. 
A one and done annual event at a match? Perhaps.  A monthly occurance? Doubtful.

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5 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So, set up matches so that as long as the shooter is willing to follow a make up procedure they can claim a 'clean' match.   And folks are going to strive to achieve this distinction?    I think at that point 'clean' matches would lose their significance to me.  

 

Naw, all you'd have to do is call "clean" for the make ups and "squeaky clean" for the no extra shot gang.:P

 

 

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5 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

No.  As Griff said above, once you need to "make up" a miss, it's still a miss.  Don't like the idea, never have. 

 

Also don't like the entire concept of the "bonus" shot for time.  A bonus for a ticket for a drawing, absolutely.  But that's another topic.

A "bonus" target is only a bonus target UNTIL THE FIRST PERSON HITS IT! After that you have to hit it just to be on par.

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Nice thought but it kinda misses the point of why a shooter strives for a clean match. 

 

Some clubs have a buy a miss option so that for an extra dollar or two you can buy a mulligan that cancels a miss. I have seen very few shooters that strive for clean matches to partake of the option.

 

My late wife always strove to shoot clean matches. In her eyes, shooting a clean match on huge targets at stupid close distances meant nothing and gave her no joy. Clean matches shot on more challenging targets gave her a lot of joy and satisfaction.

 

I have intentionally missed a target on the last stage of a match because I felt the spotters and TO incorrectly called a miss a hit on a stage with a falling plate rack a couple of years ago. I knew I had a miss and said so but lost the argument. On the last stage I intentionally missed with the last round fired because in my mind I did not deserve a clean match award. I want to earn my clean matches not have them handed out like a participation trophy.   

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A clean match wherein it is only clean because of a makeup shot is not truly clean.  Sure it is an achievement, but a clean match means no misses, not just no misses on the score sheet.

 

This is similar to the difference between a no-hitter and a perfect game.  a no-hitter means nobody on the opposing team got a hit.  That doesn't mean that you didn't lose the game.  It is technically possible to throw a no-hitter, but still end up losing due to walked batters, HBP batters, and runners that make it to base by balk or even stealing first on a dropped third strike.  No-hitters (like a clean match obtained using make ups) are good, but they are not PERFECT.  A perfect game means that NO opposing player makes it safely to base.  This is an extraordinary achievement.  In the history of Baseball, there have been only 23 perfect games.  A pitcher cannot do any better.  Much like a bowler achieves perfection with a score of 300.  Just like a shooter who shoots a match clean.

 

Pitchers with perfect games are immortalized in the Hall of Fame.  Bowlers with a 300 game get a Ring to commemorate the achievement and shooters get a clean match award (even if that is just "clean" written next to your name on the scoresheet).  By allowing shooters to buy "free miss" cards, or to shoot a makeup shot to erase the miss, you are taking away from all those who truly shot a clean match.

 

I dont know about you, but when I played T-Ball as a young kid, score was kept and the winning team at the end of the season got a trophy.  Now, score isn't kept in T-Ball and every kid gets a trophy so no kid "feels bad about it".  We are all adults here, if you "feel bad" because some folks shot clean but you had a miss, suck it up and practice more so maybe you will shoot clean next time.

 

 

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Once upon a time (back when targets were not real big and not real close), my bride and I found ourselves on a posse with a young couple, both very new to the shooting game.  This was a monthly match in northern California at a well established club and, IIRC, there were five or six posses.  After the safety briefing, this particular match was announced as a "no-miss match".  If you missed something, you were expected to keep reloading whatever gun you were shooting until you completed a clean string.  Three pistol misses = three pistol reloads, etc., not optional.  There were several memorable moments from that match.  For one thing, it took forever.  Two, it was a spotter's nightmare.  Oh yeah, the young lady had a bunch of misses, reloaded to have a bunch more misses, spent much of the day in tears and we never did see the two of them at another match.

 

So...that was a bad idea.

 

As far as an option to make up a rifle/pistol miss? 

 

Are you relying on one spotter to tell you about it?  Or do you need two of three to agree?  Or just the timer operator.  Or...

 

Not a fan of the idea.

 

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How does a frontiersman cowboy reload on the line.......?

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