Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

WTC Safety glasses


Hoss
 Share

Recommended Posts

I know that safety glasses are required. And I recall a thread about safety glasses coming off mid-stage, but what shooter not having them on and nobody noticed?

 

2nd day of 2 day annual. 1st stage.  Shooter was probably 2nd or 3rd shooter thru. I was PM, and keeping score at this particular time. Shooter shot rifle & pistols, was just finishing shotgun when I noticed he was not wearing glasses. He was done before I could react. 

Yes there were several failures. TO, spotters, LTO, the rest of the posse and mostly me as PM should have noticed.
 

TO was well experienced. Please don’t dump all the blame on him. (I’m sure it will never happen to him again)

shooter was surprised. Certainly not the type to skirt a safety rule. He wears Rx shooting glasses, and made the comment that he thought his front sights are a little fuzzy! 

 

I brought missing glasses to TO attention. He handed off timer and we conferred. As there is no penalty in the SHB (that I could find) I decided to ask match director. He was summoned, after discussion no penalty was issued, just a reminder/ warning to all to wear the glasses. 

 

in my mind, the correct call was made. The stage was over, score recorded. There was no intent by anyone to skirt a rule. It was just a brain fade. 
 

But, Should there have been a penalty? Yes, book says glasses are mandatory but no penalty is mentioned. If you think a penalty warranted, what is it and what part of SHB are you using to get the penalty? 
 

once again, this is not a “Hang the TO” thread. This really was a posse-wide failure. I just want to know what if any penalty was due.
 

thankfully, no one was injured.
 

You can be sure going forward that I will be checking eyewear!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was working the unload table at a match not that long ago and after I cleared the shooter at the table I looked over at the firing line and the shooter was shooting the stage without safety glasses so I called a cease fire and pointed it out and the MD and TO let the guy finish the stage without safety glasses. IMHO, the guy should have been sent to the unload table without firing another shot. I haven’t shot there since.

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I was working the unload table at a match not that long ago and after I cleared the shooter at the table I looked over at the firing line and the shooter was shooting the stage without safety glasses so I called a cease fire and pointed it out and the MD and TO let the guy finish the stage without safety glasses. IMHO, the guy should have been sent to the unload table without firing another shot. I haven’t shot there since.

Out of curiosity, in that instance, should the shooter have been stopped, sent to the ULT and been given a reshoot after getting his safety glasses? I'm just working a guess on the ceasefire part.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Out of curiosity, in that instance, should the shooter have been stopped, sent to the ULT and been given a reshoot after getting his safety glasses? I'm just working a guess on the ceasefire part.

He sure shouldn’t have been allowed to continue. I would say no on a reshoot also.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ROC addressed the issue of a shooter's safety glasses falling off mid-stage four years ago.
IMO, the same procedures could be applied if a shooter's lack of glasses is noticed during stage engagement.
NO PENALTY if noted AFTER completion of the stage.

 

 

Quote

 

1) Shooter must STOP (or be stopped) immediately due to the seriousness of the SAFETY issue involved.

This would NOT constitute "RO impeding/interference" in handling a shooter's equipment failure, therefore there would be NO GROUNDS for a restart/reshoot.

Precedent exists regarding the handling of a suspected "squib" during stage engagement.

 

2) If the shooter is able to remedy the issue SAFELY, s/he may continue the stage after resolution.

An RO should be allowed to "safely assist" the shooter in this case (e.g., retrieve & return dropped safety glasses to the shooter if the shooter has a cocked firearm in hand)

 

3) If the shooter is unable to SAFELY resolve the situation (e.g., glasses are broken or end up ahead of an active firing line), the shooter would receive a DNF due to inability to continue and complete the stage.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The ROC addressed the issue of a shooter's safety glasses falling off mid-stage four years ago.
IMO, the same procedures could be applied if a shooter's lack of glasses is noticed during stage engagement.
NO PENALTY if noted AFTER completion of the stage.

 

 

 

 

Would it be reasonable to say that, if the shooter is stopped, someone could grab their eye protection from their cart and the shooter could finish the stage?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Would it be reasonable to say that, if the shooter is stopped, someone could grab their eye protection from their cart and the shooter could finish the stage?

Yes

Screenshot_20220411-074441_Chrome.thumb.jpg.a6fa08a0f2abca9607b14c2946b162fd.jpg

There's no rule against illegally acquired safety glasses:ph34r::D

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Would it be reasonable to say that, if the shooter is stopped, someone could grab their eye protection from their cart and the shooter could finish the stage?

 

There is also nothing prohibiting someone from the peanut gallery from handing off their own safety glasses to the shooter and removing themselves from the firing line as the shooter finished the stage.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

There is also nothing prohibiting someone from the peanut gallery from handing off their own safety glasses to the shooter and removing themselves from the firing line as the shooter finished the stage.

Not a good idea. Splatter can and does come from even adjacent bays. Most ranges require anyone on the range to wear eye protection at all times.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I was working the unload table at a match not that long ago and after I cleared the shooter at the table I looked over at the firing line and the shooter was shooting the stage without safety glasses so I called a cease fire and pointed it out and the MD and TO let the guy finish the stage without safety glasses. IMHO, the guy should have been sent to the unload table without firing another shot. I haven’t shot there since.

 

I assume the Unloading Table Officer is also a Range Officer and therefore this case should have been a MDQ?

 

SHB 26-2, p18: “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Not a good idea. Splatter can and does come from even adjacent bays. Most ranges require anyone on the range to wear eye protection at all times.

In the Cart Corral at EOT this year we were subject to quite a bit of splatter and I would estimate that we were 25-30 yards from the targets on stage 4.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Not a good idea. Splatter can and does come from even adjacent bays. Most ranges require anyone on the range to wear eye protection at all times.

 

Not disagreeing. However, we are talking about a technical interpretation of a rule.

 

Even in the event that the shooter, themselves, did not have eye protection, stopping them from shooting would still keep them at risk from splatter on an adjacent bay.

 

However, while there is no question to the safety concern, there is no penalty afforded to a member of the peanut gallery who is sans safety glasses.

 

It would be prudent for anyone without eye protection to shield themselves and remove themselves from the firing line in the event they, themselves, did not have eye protection available to them on the line.

 

However, a shooter who attempted to extricate themselves from the firing line in order to protect themselves from splatter on adjacent bays, in the event that they were without eye protection, may also be subject to additional penalty where as the peanut gallery is not.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The ROC addressed the issue of a shooter's safety glasses falling off mid-stage four years ago.
IMO, the same procedures could be applied if a shooter's lack of glasses is noticed during stage engagement.
NO PENALTY if noted AFTER completion of the stage.

 

 

 

 

Thanks PWB. This confirms we made the correct call. Had I noticed in time I certainly would have stopped him.  
 

in my mind I’d be more inclined to offer a reshoot if stopped mid-stage, if they started with no glasses. But if ROC has already ruled then that’s settled. 
 

you can be sure that as TO and posse member I will be checking glasses from here on!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting thread.  At EOT this year I was spotting when a fellow spotter noticed I was missing a lens in my safety glasses.  This was just as the TO was starting the shooter.  I dropped the spotting stick and turned and ran out of the bay.  I later apologized to the Posse Marshall who was not concerned.  He absolutely did not want me in the bay without safety glasses.  I finished the match with a spare pair of glasses from my vehicle.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Hendo said:

Out of curiosity, in that instance, should the shooter have been stopped, sent to the ULT and been given a reshoot after getting his safety glasses? I'm just working a guess on the ceasefire part.

At our club that's what we would have done.  Cease fire, allow reshoot.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

 

Branchwater Jack video for reference. May have been posted due to this thread.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I shot nearly a whole match once with my safety glasses on my hat; I got lucky and try and watch for that now. Can't remember who noticed before I shot the last stage. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’d like to see the rule changed where if shooter starts stage without glasses, they would be stopped and given reshoot. 
 

I suppose if they lost them during stage the current rules would need to apply as a less than honest shooter could “accidentally “ knock his glasses off if he was having a bad stage, just to get the reshoot. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/11/2022 at 11:12 AM, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

This is an interesting thread.  At EOT this year I was spotting when a fellow spotter noticed I was missing a lens in my safety glasses.  This was just as the TO was starting the shooter.  I dropped the spotting stick and turned and ran out of the bay.  I later apologized to the Posse Marshall who was not concerned.  He absolutely did not want me in the bay without safety glasses.  I finished the match with a spare pair of glasses from my vehicle.

 Instead of running away how about covering your eye with your hand .and yes you would still be able to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I’d like to see the rule changed where if shooter starts stage without glasses, they would be stopped and given reshoot. 

 

Should we do the same if the shooter started the stage without shotshells on their belt?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allow me digress for a moment.  In guard to the OP, there most certainly should be a penalty involved.  Since the infraction was not discovered until the stage was complete, the penalty is to "Slap the shooter on the hand and saying Don't Do That Again."

 

In regard to the second cited instance, the MD and TO were most certainly wrong.  Again, the same above cited penalty should be assessed to the shooter.  The MD and TO however, should be sent to play some other game.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, john brown said:

 Instead of running away how about covering your eye with your hand .and yes you would still be able to see.

That is something I could have done or called a cease fire and handed off the spotting stick.  I could have handled the problem better.  Actions taken in haste are often not the best choice.  (BTW, my wife later found the lens near our vehicle and I repaired the glasses.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Are spotters supposed to call a cease fire?


 

Quote

IMPORTANT COMMON RANGE COMMANDS

- “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

SHB p.18/RO1 p.23

 

Spotters are considered Range Officers.
REF: RO1 pp.24-27

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add comment
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thank you. 

Since everyone is a safety officer, does that go for non spotters/TO as well?

 

Quote

However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the TO should call the infraction to a TO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

SHB p.18

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Should we do the same if the shooter started the stage without shotshells on their belt?

I understand where you are coming from, but….. not having shotgun shells is not a safety issue. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

I understand where you are coming from, but….. not having shotgun shells is not a safety issue. 

 

But, then again, how many other self-created safety issues do we currently award reshoots to the shooter for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

But, then again, how many other self-created safety issues do we currently award reshoots to the shooter for?

But those in general get a 10 second MSV and shooter continues.  This we are a hard stop and a DNF. 

Edited by Hoss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMPORTANT COMMON RANGE COMMANDS

 

- “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

 

17 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:


 

SHB p.18/RO1 p.23

 

Spotters are considered Range Officers.
REF: RO1 pp.24-27

However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the TO should call the infraction to a TO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

‐---‐---------------------------------

Herein lies the confusion. There are a couple discrepancies and clarity issues. 

*The top quote above states that command is given by "any witnessing Range Officer or match official". 

When compared to the bottom quote above, it says ANY SHOOTER observing a safety infraction not seen by the TO should just tell the TO for it to be resolved after. "Any shooter" would be anyone else shooting the match wouldn't it? 

However, it says in RO1 that Spotters should make every effort to stop a shooter from an unsafe act.

*There is the issue that willfully ignoring the stop command given by the TO will result in a MDQ. It doesnt say any range officer, so how about if a spotter says stop? How about if someone in the peanut gallery says stop for that matter? How is the shooter supposed to know who is who?

*The issue of it being said by many that the only command a shooter MUST follow is the cease fire command. (Mostly talking about going back to open a lever or some such as that.) But, the very first safety rule in the RO1 course conventions for performance and conduct is "The shooter must obey all Range commands given by the TO/CRO. 

 

I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out some inconsistency. Seems to me everybody should be able to call a cease fire if they see something bad enough. That or only the TO.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TW... that is where the RO III manual is great at resolving these apparently conflicting issues...  The observing spotter or other shooter should bring the matter to the TO's attention... in a forceful & commanding tone, for the TO to then issue the relevant and binding commands to the offending shooter!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

TW,  Ah, how long you been playin this game??  Had access to the Handbooks??  Really??

Not as long as you've been a smartazz!:ph34r:

I've always got a reason for a question even if it may seem stupid at the time.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.