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Small, far, and difficult sequences vs big, close and easy sequences.


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41 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Big, close, simple (I prefer the term straight forward to simple).

 

Matches are (even if not done consciously) written to feed egos and make people feel a "certain way"...

 

A small, far, difficult (code word challenging) is (often, not always) written to boost the ego of the match director celebrating the denial of clean, fast runs.  These are the matches that believe they have a responsibility to encourage better marksmanship by exposing the inabilities of their shooters.

Now admittedly; I have shot some of these type matches put on by wonderful folks at wonderful venues that I do not believe were undertaken with ulterior motives - but I have NEVER shot one that the people, the venue or the awards could overcome the downsides and make attending a match of this type enjoyable enough to return.

 

Whereas a big, close, simple match is written to boost the egos of the majority of the shooters - allowing and encouraging every shooter to perform at a level beyond their usual.  These matches have their same challenges as the encouragement to go faster than ever before is fraught with dangers and trainwrecks as well.  And every mistake made in these type of matches are magnified by the bunching of scores.  Yes, 10 second stages are an amazing thing to watch; years of practice and mental/ physical perfection - but watching a usual 35 second shooter shoot their first 27 and watching their smile bloom and cheers erupt is just as much fun.

 

As many have stated many times over the years - we only get to SHOOT for a couple minutes - the rest of the time is spent working and watching others. 

Being surrounded by a positive environment, watching others succeed and being present in their celebration is infectious and makes all the non shooting time just as joyful as the time on the firing line.

 

Silence and failure at a match is just as infectious - even if you personally shoot well; watching others being disappointed and sad sucks all the fun off the range.

 

I spend a lot of money to attend matches - I generally try to avoid spending money on things that will dampen the joy of my wife, my daughter or myself.  

Yeah, it's a shame that people are getting priced out of matches at this point.  I figure a typical monthly costs me about $30-60 in gas, $15-30 in match fees and about $100 for ammunition (three people like you).  Traveling to a State level match starts at $1,000 and goes up from there.

40 minutes ago, Griff said:

Too much of anything is a bad thing... Well, except... nope, even that!  

 

But, people like to complain... more'n everything else... apparently.   The majority would've answered like my first answer... but are too chicken to admit it.  I've watched so many people at different venues, compain the targets were too far/close/big/shaped funny... scenarios are too difficult... then there's always the... "it was too hot/cold", "it was too windy/not windy enough..."

 

I've never met a stage I didn't like before I got up to shoot it... I've readjusted my viewpoint after I've shot on a great many!  Usually directly proportional to my performance.    The worse I did, the worse I like it!  

 

I get a kick outta all the effort some folks put into their complainin'.... If they put that much effort into practicin'... they'd be winners!  

 

Keep the targets big... set 'em in imaginative ways, some high, some low, some over there, here and back there, up here, and all over!  Keep the sequences simple... folks'll screw up all all by themselves.!  Keep sequences for rifle & pistol as close as possible... folks will still screw up all on their own... If you have an all big/close match... you'll just force me to slow down and try for the corners...   Did you know that if you hit those little (or big) Harper targets in the feet it looks like he's dancin'!!!?  

 

OH wait!  You wanted a serious answer?

LOL.  Please.

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As I have already answered the op - Ill share a story.

A number of years ago I attended a major match that prides itself on a low percentage of clean shooters.

A group of five Las Vegas local shooters traveled to the match and shot together.

At dinner after the first days six stages - our group of five shooters; a group of fairly good shooters- had a combined total of 81 misses...  81.

 

We whined about the match; commiserated on our lack of shooting ability and even discussed simply packing up and heading home the next morning.

But we decided to tough it out and finish the match.

 

Imagine our surprise the next morning looking at scores when EVERY one of us was either 1st, 2nd or 3rd in category going into day two.  With 81 misses.

 

This was a challenging match.

Gorgeous venue and nice enough people.

But it certainly wasn't fun and I have never returned.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yeah, it's a shame that people are getting priced out of matches at this point.  I figure a typical monthly costs me about $30-60 in gas, $15-30 in match fees and about $100 for ammunition (three people like you).  Traveling to a State level match starts at $1,000 and goes up from there.

Land Run will have cost me the following:

Four shooters entries. 

Myself, Painted Lady, Desert Scorpion, Cadillac.  $800

2400+ miles (1200 miles each way) @ 20 mpg @$5 a gallon $600 -$700

Two nights hotel (1 night each way) - two rooms each night. $600.

1 week Air BnB in Ok - $900.

Ammo $300 - $500

Meals for 4 for 9 days $900.

Assorted stuff $900.

 

So I figure - I will be outlaying somewhere around $5000 to attend Land Run and shoot for a grand total of 3 - 5 minutee each.  

$5000 for 20 minutes of shooting equals $250/ minute.

We better be enjoying ourselves.

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18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

So I figure - I will be outlaying somewhere around $5000 to attend Land Run and shoot for a grand total of 3 - 5 minutee each.  

$5000 for 20 minutes of shooting equals $250/ minute.

We better be enjoying ourselves.

Take advantage of the free admission to the Cowboy Musuem and arrive early before the banquet for hours of viewing the exhibits.  Your trip will be worth the expense.  

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I'll throw one more thing in the ring.

A few years back I was MD at Bordertown.  My better half (Trizzlee) and I were shooting the warm up (4 stages).  There was a young lady (30ish) on our posse that was moaning from the beginning that the targets were too big and too close.  It wasn't until she completed the 4th stage that she had shot one clean. 

So, my point is - just because the targets are big and close doesn't mean that you don't have to concentrate or use your front sights. 

 

Have a great day, 

BS

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The old SASS saying, There’s no target too big or too close that you can’t miss!:)

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Ok more jabbering.  And filling in the background.

 

I love big and close.

That is and always will be my default and preferred target array.

 

But big and close does not have to mean "simple" or "stand and deliver" - I actually personally prefer the big, close array as it allow for the insertion of more options in sequences, prop use, movements while still maintaining a faster match pace.

 

I enjoy the action part of our game and think some of the silliness of cowboy has been sacrificed in the pursuit of 10 second stages.

I am a huge advocate for the implementation of props, ideas and action of yesteryear on the target sizes and distances of today.  

 

This, to me, would be the ideal cowboy match.

 

A target array (sizes and distances) that allow ALL shooters access to clean stages.

 

A entertaining match with stories (short - 4 lines or less) to provide ambiance and reasons for our activity.

 

Prop manipulation both on and off the clock using universal skills (skills that anyone of safe firearms handling skills can accomplish - flip the card, stab the dummy, toss the dynamite) that further create ambiance and add to the "cowboy" experience.

 

A match that by its design forces shooters (that wish victory) to run on the ragged edge while at the same time allow lesser experienced/ skilled shooters the opportunity for successful navigation.

 

A match that remembers this is entertainment first, second and always.

 

A match whose primary goal (after safety) is to create memories and make shooters smile - not because of their placement but because of their participation.

 

When I was match director for Eldorado - the above were my defining factors for EVERY sequence, stage and match I wrote. 

I did not always live up to my own goals but I always tried to make a match that everyone irrespective of experience and skillset "could" succeed at and that folks walked away from smiling.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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19 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Ok more jabbering.  And filling in the background.

 

I love big and close.

That is and always will be my default and preferred target array.

 

But big and close does not have to mean "simple" or "stand and deliver" - I actually personally prefer the big, close array as it allow for the insertion of more options in sequences, prop use, movements while still maintaining a faster match pace.

 

I enjoy the action part of our game and think some of the silliness of cowboy has been sacrificed in the pursuit of 10 second stages.

I am a huge advocate for the implementation of props, ideas and action of yesteryear on the target sizes and distances of today.  

 

This, to me, would be the ideal cowboy match.

 

A target array (sizes and distances) that allow ALL shooters access to clean stages.

 

A entertaining match with stories (short - 4 lines or less) to provide ambiance and reasons for our activity.

 

Prop manipulation both on and off the clock using universal skills (skills that anyone of safe firearms handling skills can accomplish - flip the card, stab the dummy, toss the dynamite) that further create ambiance and add to the "cowboy" experience.

 

A match that by its design forces shooters (that wish victory) to run on the ragged edge while at the same time allow lesser experienced/ skilled shooters the opportunity for successful navigation.

 

A match that remembers this is entertainment first, second and always.

 

A match whose primary goal (after safety) is to create memories and make shooters smile - not because of their placement but because of their participation.

 

When I was match director for Eldorado - the above were my defining factors for EVERY sequence, stage and match I wrote. 

I did not always live up to my own goals but I always tried to make a match that everyone irrespective of experience and skillset "could" succeed at and that folks walked away from smiling.

 Was it always big and close with the targets kissing each other? if not when did you notice the change.

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1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Small.  Awards that require skill are more valuable to me.

I can appreciate that answer. I would also venture to say most people would say it takes skill to WIN either match, albeit different skill sets. 

 

I've done some figuring, and keep in mind I'm just a country boy from TN. To me, with hobbies or sports it seems most people enjoy what they're better at doing. For instance, I suck at basketball so I dont like to play it. To me, there's no more skill required to hit a 16" square rifle target at 20 yards than it does a 20" rifle target at 7 yards. The difference is the time it takes me to acquire the target and be sure of site picture before breaking the shot. The farther target will take me longer to engage;however, neither is what I would call challenging but some would and that's ok. My favorite part of a stage is before I shoot it. It's deciphering the built in code that is the most efficient way to run it. It's making the decision on when to floor it and when to pump the brakes. 

  What makes shooting a stage fun to me, is having plenty of options to run it how I want. The thing that turns me off of a match most is having the stagewriter tell me exactly what has to be done. I can get that at home. Hmmm. I just changed the bunkhouse boss' name to stagewriter.

 

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I've posted this info before,  probably a few years back.

It was an Unscientific test of what I referred to as .... OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE.

 

And each of us have an OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE.

 

For some, it might be slow, whether the targets are set up for fast shooting.

For some, it might be they have to slow down a tad in order to maintain a high level of proficiency in hitting the targets.

 

Here is how it works:

In my test, PISTOL targets (regardless of SASS recommended sizes) that were 7-8 yards took a bit longer

to maintain a HIGH level of hits during a 10 shot string than the SAME size targets at 4.5-5.5 yards.

 

Targets that were closer than 4.5 yards at the shooters speed capabilities gave about the same level of

hits as those positioned at 7-8 yards.  The shooter shooting at their speed capabilities were missing the targets, same as at 7-8 yards.

 

BUT, when various size targets were place at 4.5-5.5 yards, a shooters OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE levels 

were achieved because they could perform at their individual speed levels and still maintain a high level

of hits.  

 

When targets are too close, they can easily get overrun.   Another problem with targets that might be

3-4 yards is the angle to engage becomes problematic,  yes..... even with speedsters.   Don't ask me how

I know about speedsters..... :D

 

If a person wants to just shoot their vintage guns, why does it matter what size or distance to the targets.

If a person wants to be timed and compete in competition that allows your competitors to be able

to perform at THEIR Optimum Performance,  ya have to consider giving serious consideration

towards setting up targets that allow that possibility.

 

Think about it!

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, john brown said:

 Was it always big and close with the targets kissing each other? if not when did you notice the change.

I started CAS in 2000 - joined SASS a year or two later.

When I began; the further out challenging match was the norm and Bordertown was the oddball big and close outlier.

 

After I shot Bordertown my first time in 04 or so - still in Tucson - I quickly realized the difference in my enjoyment and made it a goal to bring that to Las Vegas as a club officer and match director.

 

But just moving targets in closer will not change a poor match to a great one - it still requires a quality match director to create an experience.

And this is where I think there is sometimes a disconnect with big and close.

 

A small and far match can make a "enjoyable" match (for those who enjoy that) with lesser sequences, ambiance and including stand and deliver as the challenge of striking targets is the end all - be all.

 

But when copy/ pasted onto a big and close match without adjusting sequences, prop use, movenent and ambiance - the big close can feel overly simplistic and boring.

 

Since big and close isnt about the challenge of hitting targets (as much) the other components must step up to provide the entertainment.

 

Its all shooting - just which components are more enjoyable to you and your customer.

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Well...ya asked for my druthers so...Big & Close.

 

It's more the easy vs difficult sequences that swayed me. When I'm traveling to shoots I'm always a bit more tired than if I'm home. I don't want to have a brain teaser for each stage. 

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8 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Of the responses that actually answered my question (mixed stages, people I like, I don't care, etc. were not options) the responses appear to be 13-4 in favor of big, close and simple.  So far....

There are times when the "majority rule" isn't in our best interest - case in point, look at the White House - unless you believe the 65% of the population who know the election was stolen.

Far, Small, Lots of running-n-gunning, unusual patterns / sweeps - and wind, lots of wind !

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Some folks have forgotten about 'THE VARIABLE' that SASS and the Big Matches had to consider

in order to make money and draw a crowd.....  The Wife's and Kids.

 

I don't have a statistic on this, but I have been told MANY times that the targets needed to big

and close to help accommodate new shooters and help keep them happy.

As it turned out, the big and close started making others happy.

 

Paul Harvey would say....."And now you know the rest of the story".

 

..........Widder

 

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4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

$5000 for 20 minutes of shooting equals $250/ minute

This seems to be a gross oversimplification (perhaps a bit obtuse?). Do you only value the time spent on the clock?

 

To answer OP's question, I'd stay home. Great matches have a variety. Stages with a lot of movement and/or action could have simpler sequences and easier-to-hit targets. Stand and deliver stages could include more challenging sequences or targets. Any mix in between is OK, but there needs to be a balance and a variety.

 

As a relatively new (2yrs) Wild Bunch MD, my goal is to challenge the shooters in a way that makes them feel accomplished. I want them to shoot clean, but I want them to earn it (it's never impossible), and I want them to feel good about what they did, even if that means learning from mistakes. I try to give them plenty of rope so they can choose how to shoot a stage. The best matches, IMO, are ones that give you more than one good choice (left-to-right, right-to-left, round count vs. specific order, gun order, etc. -- WB makes this easier because the rifle can be last). Shoutout to Zona and Barbwire -- the 2022 AZ State WBAS match provided excellent options and a true variety of difficulty, and it is the benchmark for me now when I write stages.

 

Granted, CAS is not the same game as WBAS. I'd only travel out-of-state for a WBAS match, and if I'm already there, I'll shoot CAS too. So, you know.... grain of salt.

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Also like most everything - whatever is successful gets copied.  But as is the case, often the folks doing the copying look only at the easiest component and fail to heed and duplicate "everything" that made the original popular.

 

And if they fail in their duplication; instead of analyzing the issue - they will double down on the one thing they understood to be the draw. 

Just keep going BIGGER, CLOSER - Not better, more fun, more entertaining - not understanding that it takes more than a single ingredient to make a great meal - no matter what ingredient you begin with.

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10 hours ago, Lefty Dutchman, SASS #41480 said:

I use to shoot in Raton New Mexico, this shoot was organized by the old west shooter’s association. we would shoot 32 stages over four days plus all the side events both pistol and rifle targets were small and far. There was one rifle stage where the targets where about 100 yards away it was a great shoot and still is one of my favorite shoots. I went there for about ten years and never got a clean match, that was the challenge every year the closest I never came was one miss. This shoot was started by bill Hahn.

 

Lefty

You left out a couple things: 10 second misses, and more importantly- they don’t exist anymore!

 I too loved that match and miss it, but it was HARD!!

As SASS matches spread and multiplied their attendance dwindled.

 I think OWSA is the perfect answer to the question asked!

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42 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

And if they fail in their duplication; instead of analyzing the issue - they will double down on the one thing they understood to be the draw. 

Just keep going BIGGER, CLOSER - Not better, more fun, more entertaining 

Come on man. I can't be on EVERYBODIES posse!:P

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I vote for small, far, and difficult.  Shooting clean in a CAS match is not high on my list of requirements.

 

Being challenged increases my enjoyment, 10-10-4 bores me.  Big and close can be challenging, but as Creeker mentioned, too often, big and close trumps creativity.  Alternatively, far and difficult can be boring as well.

 

I have said it for years, I go to CAS shoots for the people, not the shooting.  I shoot other disciplines, to challenge me.

 

As an aside, to Mr. Creeker, those Eldorado matches, and Stampede matches way back when were always some of my favorites.  Hoping to make it to your BSBDS match someday.

 

 

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Since there is only three options; big/close/easy, far/small/difficult or stay home. The size/stature of the match is not defined so I'll assume that it's a larger type match.

 

I've seen enough big, close and easy over the past five or six years that I really could care less about seeing more of it, especially at a large match.

 

I don't like track matches or procedural traps either. The small/far away targets don't bother me too much but it's not worth fuel/ match/hotel fees.

 

I'll choose option #3, stay home. Would I regret not being there, having fun with the people? Yes, yes I would...that is until the credit card bill arrived the next month

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Bordertown is a drag race.  Find your edge and do not break it.  They are big and close and every year I cannot wait for the next year!!!!  Last year I had two misses and could not believe it.   I thought I had two accidental discharges and then my son Cody told me I was pulling the trigger while holstering.  Ouch!  Big and close is a blast and I never hear complaints.  That is why it sells out so fast and draws so many outstanding shooters.   Big and close gets my votes.

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13 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Why is it that people always assume that the reason a match sells out is because the targets are big and close with super simple stages. AND why does every one assume that if the targets are set further out that the sequences will always be difficult?

 

Have you ever considered that the reason a match sells out is because of the people in attendance? 

 

I have shot matches with excellent targets and well written stages that I will likely never return to because the overall experience was not enjoyable. I consistently return to matches with more difficult stages because the overall experience is always excellent. 


I loathe cliques, nothing ruins a match faster than a group in the peanut gallery that stands in the back making fun of a slow shooter and criticizing others. They think that because the shooter cannot hear them that it is ok to be disrespectful. 

 

Its also not enjoyable when a sizable number of people consistently shirk posse duties.

 

I was at the match.  I’ve been shooting since Dec 2012. I’m not sure I’ve EVER had as much fun AT A MATCH as I did this one. There were folks from 11-12 states.  There were some extremely fun and unique side matches. It was NOT a bank breaker.  It also SOLD OUT.  Not in minutes like BT. The stages were sent to every shooter a month in advance! Some folks even set up the scenarios to practice the sweeps!
 

 I understand the question however, I find it tiresome that matches are judged yay or nay by the size of the steel. I’d take the match I shot this weekend over a lot of matches I’ve been to over the years because I, and the folks from far off, (on my posse and others) had FUN! I did NOT shoot my best match…I shot the most fun match I believe I’ve ever shot. Fine damn weekend if you ask me.

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

PS why is the % of clean shooter the metric by which we “rate” matches? 

 

 

Edited by Scarlett
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17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

PS why is the % of clean shooter the metric by which we “rate” matches? 

 

 

 

Hi Scarlett.

Rating the match by the % of clean shooters is just one of the ways matches are judged.

The Match Officials also rate stages by the Misses and 'P's earned on each stage in order to

make improvement where needed.

 

If a stage has a high degree of Misses, in comparison to other stages, they look at the targets

and scenario and make a change if they see a pattern..... i.e... rectangle targets vs. diamond shape targets.

 

And Naturally, MD try to avoid stages that might produce a 'P' trap.

 

Hope you are doing well.

 

:wub:

..........Widder

 

 

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 Big, close and simple

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1 hour ago, Dungannon Gunner said:

 Big, close and simple

 

I like fairly simple as well, I don't enjoy a scenario that is so complicated I need to study like I'm doing a university course to shoot it and then worry and stress when I'm loading that I fully understand what I'm about to shoot and then shoot and totally balls it up :( 

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5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I was at the match.  I’ve been shooting since Dec 2012. I’m not sure I’ve EVER had as much fun AT A MATCH as I did this one. There were folks from 11-12 states.  There were some extremely fun and unique side matches. It was NOT a bank breaker.  It also SOLD OUT.  Not in minutes like BT. The stages were sent to every shooter a month in advance! Some folks even set up the scenarios to practice the sweeps!
 

 I understand the question however, I find it tiresome that matches are judged yay or nay by the size of the steel. I’d take the match I shot this weekend over a lot of matches I’ve been to over the years because I, and the folks from far off, (on my posse and others) had FUN! I did NOT shoot my best match…I shot the most fun match I believe I’ve ever shot. Fine damn weekend if you ask me.

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

PS why is the % of clean shooter the metric by which we “rate” matches? 

 

 

This is definitely NOT a question about whether you liked a specific match. The question may have been prompted by a specific match but it is not a referendum on that match nor a criticism of it. 

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4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Hi Scarlett.

Rating the match by the % of clean shooters is just one of the ways matches are judged.

The Match Officials also rate stages by the Misses and 'P's earned on each stage in order to

make improvement where needed.

 

If a stage has a high degree of Misses, in comparison to other stages, they look at the targets

and scenario and make a change if they see a pattern..... i.e... rectangle targets vs. diamond shape targets.

 

And Naturally, MD try to avoid stages that might produce a 'P' trap.

 

Hope you are doing well.

 

:wub:

..........Widder

 

 

What percentage of shooters getting Ps on a stage makes you think P trap.

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My first thought was that it is great if someone can choose between matches at all, as there’s not much to chose from where I live…

 

But given the choice it would be far and small. As a lot of you, I like a good mix of both. All stages big and close I find more boring than all far and small, and staying at home wouldn’t be an option for me cause a not-too-great match is still better than none.

 

My opinion and views to the topic:

  • If I could hit a rifle target in 90% with the pistol, it’s too big/close. The guns we use are designed for different purposes. Imho, it should be clear by looking at a stage what’s a rifle target and which are for pistols.
  • If I couldn’t hit targets (pistol/rifle/SG) at least 95% when there’s no timer running, then the targets are too far/small.
  • Comparing times from different stages is otiose. It’s like comparing lap times from different race tracks.
  • The number of my misses isn’t an indicator for the fun I had (but number of Ps might be…) And it still can be a superb match if not a single shooter stayed clean.
  • My personal satisfaction after a more challenging clean stage is significantly higher than after an "easy" one.
  • In video games, there’s a beginner mode to ensure beginners having fun, and some may stay at that beginner level forever. Others switch to level advanced and expert to have fun instead of getting faster and faster clean runs. It’s good to have some stages that attract and satisfy new shooters, but every stage?

So long, Equanimous Phil

 

P.S.: Living in Switzerland, skiing is a big thing here. Years ago, I can’t remember if it was on the Lauberhorn or Streif, one sentence of a sports commentator got somehow stuck to my brain: "Today, it's not about getting down without a mistake, it's about getting down with the least mistakes!" It was great to watch!

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By my count we're at 21 for big, close, and simple, 8 for small, far and difficult, a large number who responded with options that weren't offered, and a large number who would prefer a mix including some who would choose not to shoot a match that had too much of either. 

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that a majority of SASS shooters on the Wire would prefer a mix, but if that isn't an option they prefer big, close and simple.

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