WTC

[Tennessee williams]

WTC as written

 

Stage instructions:

Start: at position 1 at the ready, hands touching post. Rifle loaded with 10rds, and open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely. Two revolvers loaded with 5 rds each, holstered. Shooter may indicated ready by saying "Ready"....

 

On signal: From position 1 with rifle engage R1-R4 alternating any 2 targets for 5 rds. Repeat the instructions using the other 2 targets for the next 5 rds. With shotgun engage 2 sg targets, then from position 2 engage the other 2 sg targets. Make sg safe on the box at position 2. With revolvers engage P1-P4 as per the rifle instructions.

 

Shooter from position 1 completes the rifle string as instructed. Fires first 2 sg as instructed. Shooter moves to position 2 and hits the final 2 sg targets. Shooter gets first revolver shot off before sg is restaged on the box. Shooter finishes revolvers as instructed.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

I don’t see a “then” in the instructions so no call 

[Griff]

Hmmm... duelist?  Or was shotgun in free fall while first revolver was being unholstered... 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I would say... 'NO CALL',   basically based on JB's comment.

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

P

It was a P trap for Duelist shooters.

[Tennessee williams]

12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

P

It was a P trap for Duelist shooters.

This is a bit different.

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

Hmmm... duelist?  Or was shotgun in free fall while first revolver was being unholstered... 

Shooter was shooting one handed

[Tn Tombstone]

From OP, no call. I would call that a beautiful transition. Just the view from my saddle.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

36 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I don’t see a “then” in the instructions so no call 

Weasel word that wanna be lawyers and congress use. Instructions say “Make sg safe on the box at position 2. With revolvers…”. That’s a period between the sentences, not a comma. If the instructions aren’t clear as written by the OP, then no stage instructions should be allowed without authorization by Pale Wolf and a local committee of grand poobahs and “then” submitted & posted in triplicate. 
 

It’s a P. My story and I’m sticking to it. 

 

[Griff]

No Call... None of us are mind-readers... Impossible to know the stage writers intent...   A period also means a full stop... does that mean the shooter has to be standing still between the time the shotgun lands on the prop and the pistol is first fired... Come on... reading stuff into a description that ain't there is a fool's trap.  Words and lack thereof mean something.  BOD to the shooter.  Shooting sequences correct, shotgun staged safely, muzzles kept in the 170º?  Check, check, check, read the time...  Make sure the brass pickers are clear, KD targets reset...   NEXT SHOOTER!  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

When I started this game in 2008, the rule book fit in my shirt pocket. I suppose this kind of overthinking and lawyering is inevitable in any competition, but it’s a big reason why my waning interest in this game is accelerating. 
 

Carry on. 

[Doc Shapiro]

I can see the point of Abilene Slim, but there's no way to know the intent of the stage writer.  Should there have been a "then" in the instructions?  There isn't.  Since there's no way to know as there isn't clarity in the instructions, and benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, no call.

Doc

[Clueless Bob]

My .02¢ worth.  Shotgun in hand at proper position is considered "Safe"

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Abilene,

Respectfully, have you considered that to those folks who get up early in the morning to attend a match with great anticipation and with

good intentions to have a good day with friends, that their interest in this game is waning BECAUSE of those folks who are too eager to

dish out penalties that are not warranted, make up rules that don't exist, or create situations/stage scenarios that penalize

a specific category and favor another.

 

If there is a 'P' in this situation, it should belong to the stage writer.   And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.... 

 

EDIT:  I use to shoot with a feller that ran around like Gomer Pyle on Saturday hollering at most every shooter....."Its a P, its a P,

It's a P".   Nobody cared to shoot with him.

 

..........Widder

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I just had another thought that some will find interesting.

If a 'P' is warranted in this situation, then couldn't you also give the shooter a 'SOG' penalty for shooting the stage in the manner

not allowed and gaining a competitive ADVANTAGE from doing so.

 

..........Widder

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

20 minutes ago, Clueless Bob said:

My .02¢ worth.  Shotgun in hand at proper position is considered "Safe"

 

Stage instructions specify:

"Make sg safe on the box at position 2." 

The question is whether the sequence of the engagements should be followed as listed or are they up to individual interpretation due to the lack of the word "THEN"...which, BTW, IS used relative to the 2nd set of shotgun targets: 

"With shotgun engage 2 sg targets, then from position 2 engage the other 2 sg targets."

BUT!

Since the firing location for the 1st two SG targets isn't specified ("open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely") i.e., the only SG location specified is for the 2nd pair ...could the shooter have staged the shotgun at "position 2" and engaged all four SG targets from that location (before or after engaging revolver targets)??

 

Y'all got a headache yet??

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Widder, if you think I’m eager to dish out penalties, then you’ve no idea of who I am. Would love to shoot with you sometime so’s we can size each up in person!  

 

I’ve been loathe to hand penalties out and have even been criticized for giving the shooter the BOD.  As such, I rarely hold the timer anymore and am anxious to hand it off as soon as possible. I offered my opinion in the context of a speculative and academic discussion. 
 

What sticks in my craw is the endless squabbling of stage descriptions over words that are either absent, present, modified by punctuation, and/or the writer’s intent. And missing from this thread is anything from the stage writer hisself on whose intent this discussion revolves.  We don’t know, but the speculation will probably go on for many pages. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc Shapiro]

18 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Widder, if you think I’m eager to dish out penalties, then you’ve no idea of who I am. Would love to shoot with you sometime so’s we can size each up in person!  

 

I’ve been loathe to hand penalties out and have even been criticized for giving the shooter the BOD.  As such, I rarely hold the timer anymore and am anxious to hand it off as soon as possible. I offered my opinion in the context of a speculative and academic discussion. 
 

What sticks in my craw is the endless squabbling of stage descriptions over words that are either absent, present, modified by punctuation, and/or the writer’s intent. And missing from this thread is anything from the stage writer hisself on whose intent this discussion revolves.  We don’t know, but the speculation will probably go on for many pages. 
 

 

That's an interesting discussion.  It would be fun to chat about it over some sort of liquid refreshment.  It's one of those topics where there is no right or wrong, it's more of a "best guess".

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

For those arguing that without the word “then” that there is no order of instructions, would you also say no call if the pistols were fired before the shotgun, or before the rifle? Seriously. 

[Tennessee williams]

4 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

For those arguing that without the word “then” that there is no order of instructions, would you also say no call if the pistols were fired before the shotgun, or before the rifle? Seriously. 

You have to take into account continuity. How are the rest of the stages written? Are the rifle, pistol, shotgun instructions given differently on another stage that has ANY order? 

This is why I like the firearm  instructions listed separately.

 

. Take this unrelated set of instructions for example. They're laid out just like the OP set of instructions. You'll note that on these instructions there is a note that at position one, firearms may be used in any order. However, the ON SIGNAL instructions say from position 2. You don't HAVE to start at position 2, you can start on 1. It also lists the instructions for the rifle before the instructions for the sg. You don't HAVE to shoot the rifle first even though the instructions are laid out in that order. As Griff and Widder said, we can't guess something. If they want the prior gun grounded first, I think it should say "then". 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Stage instructions specify:

"Make sg safe on the box at position 2." 

The question is whether the sequence of the engagements should be followed as listed or are they up to individual interpretation due to the lack of the word "THEN"...which, BTW, IS used relative to the 2nd set of shotgun targets: 

"With shotgun engage 2 sg targets, then from position 2 engage the other 2 sg targets."

BUT!

Since the firing location for the 1st two SG targets isn't specified ("open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely") i.e., the only SG location specified is for the 2nd pair ...could the shooter have staged the shotgun at "position 2" and engaged all four SG targets from that location (before or after engaging revolver targets)??

 

Y'all got a headache yet??

I figured you'd be the first to recognize the use of the word "then" in part of the instruction and omitted later! I wish I'd have made a bet!

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Abilene,

Respectfully, have you considered that to those folks who get up early in the morning to attend a match with great anticipation and with

good intentions to have a good day with friends, that their interest in this game is waning BECAUSE of those folks who are too eager to

dish out penalties that are not warranted, make up rules that don't exist, or create situations/stage scenarios that penalize

a specific category and favor another.

 

If there is a 'P' in this situation, it should belong to the stage writer.   And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.... 

 

EDIT:  I use to shoot with a feller that ran around like Gomer Pyle on Saturday hollering at most every shooter....."Its a P, its a P,

It's a P".   Nobody cared to shoot with him.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, calm down and go get you another Dr Pepper!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm waning on the Dr.Pepper.   But I think I will have a cold Pepsi and watch Columbo solve another murder mystery.

 

..........Widder

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

IF the stage writer is REQUIRING that tasks be COMPLETED prior to the next task being started; they must demonstrate this condition by the use of phrases like DO X and THEN DO Y.

 

An order of tasks does not require one be done to completion with a definable break prior to another beginning (I'm pretty sure we call these events transitions).

 

In the absense of these STATED task completion requirements - tasks MAY be occurring simultaneously if it is safe and within the rules to do so.

 

No call - next shooter.

And Cowboy Karen must chill out.

 

 

[Tennessee Trapper Tom]

Not sure of so many other clubs but at Knob Creek when I was able to shoot we always read the instructions and try to answer the questions before starting a stage. While I was range master for three years I found it very hard to write a stage where everyone understood instructions to the tee. There were almost always questions. Reading these instructions No Call. Next shooter

[El Muerto Negro]

TW your going to make Sass rewrite the rules again lol 

 

My first thought like PWB said was oh I could shoot all the shotgun from position 2. 

 

At what point is the shotgun not safe? I'll argue its safer in hand being lowered to the table then a shooter that drops it on the table. 

 

IMO unless a stage writer needs to keep a gun at a specific location or direction. The sentence make safe or anything like that should be omitted from instructions. Words matter the more you use the better chance someone earns a P you didn't intend.

 

EMN

[Anvil Al #59168]

Why even write in make safe on the box.

 

 

Come of folks. Don't write in unnecessary crap that don't need to be there. 

 

 

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

Make em go bang

 

Imis

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

7 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I'm waning on the Dr.Pepper.   But I think I will have a cold Pepsi and watch Columbo solve another murder mystery.

 

..........Widder

 

Columbo?

He's a lightweight.

Banacek, baby!

[Eyesa Horg]

Pretty soon we won't be able to get anyone to write stages for fear of arguments.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

A feller goes into a fine restaurant and orders a big steak.

 

When the steak is brought to the table, its basically 30% full of FAT.

The customer complains to the manager, who points to the menu that describes their steaks are "Nicely Marbled".

 

"Nicely Marbled" to the Manager and Cook.

Full of Fat to the customer.

 

To the Bear, Tiger or Wolf, it would make little difference.

To the paying customer, proper wording can and does make a difference.

 

EDIT:  yes, I'm having steak (ribeye) and eggs for breakfast..... 

 

..........Widder