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☆─☆ 44-40 Brass: Fissures on the surface of the walls, Puzzled.


"Big Boston"

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I use other brands of brass, but the ones I load for competition are Starline as they are what I have the most off. The intent is not to dirt Starline brass, but I'd like to know if anyone else has seen or experienced this. All except for a handful or two, all my brass was obtained used, some was new, most were experienced. 

 

To summarize, some of the brass had been fired in a 45 Colt, some is fairly old, some may have been sized in a scratchy die, some could have been stepped on, straightened out and reused. 

 

Bottom line, I started to notice the odd or several fissures  on some of the brass. Reloading them again didn't seem to make the fissures any worse or deeper. None are cracked all the way through. the depth of the fissure is only a few thou.

 

I'm culling these out as I notice them, Cowboy firearms are a bit too expensive to risk case ruptures that could have been prevented. 

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

My theory, the surface of the case wall is becoming a bit brittle from too many sizing operations and has started to have surface cracks. The surface of the cases may have had surface flaws from new and successive sizing has aggravated/exaggerated those flaws. This could be an indication that the brass has reached the end of life cycle.

 

The necks seem fine, only one case has a visible flaw in the neck, again, not cracked though. 

 

All loads were cowboy, no +P or other shenanigans. And I've reloaded a few cases like these, and they don't seem to get any worse. I have sufficient brass, so for now I'm culling them. 

 

BB 

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Two cases (far right and left in pic) have exactly the same pattern of damage. 

That is almost always caused by dirty or damaged chambers, usually in rifle if most of the cases have the same pattern.  (Revolvers would have only 1 chamber of 6 producing the same repeating pattern on the brass.) Time to check more cases, and then do a close inspection of the chambers of firearms they have been fired in. 

 

If you are sure YOUR guns have never fired these cases, then it's someone else's gun that has a dirty or damaged chamber.   Since you say you have reloaded some cases and they don't get worse, it's almost certainly coming from whoever has fired the brass before you!  They may even know that they have a gun with a rough chamber and leave the brass behind after they shoot, considering it not worth using again.  

 

Scratches deep enough for my finger nail to catch in result in me discarding the cases to the scrap bin.

 

good luck, GJ

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53 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Bet it was caused by a scratched up size die.

OLG 

x2... caused by not lubing the cases before resizing.

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Not a sizing die type of scratch.  Those are perfectly straight and usually a pretty uniform depth.  But a perfectly repeating gouge that is not straight?   That comes from a firearm chamber wall defect or damage.

 

good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not a sizing die type of scratch.  Those are perfectly straight and usually a pretty uniform depth.  But a perfectly repeating gouge that is not straight?   That comes from a firearm chamber wall defect or damage.

 

good luck, GJ

Yes it could come from a rough chamber.

But, I have seen scratches just like that as more and more metal transfers to the walls of the die.

OLG 

 

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Just a thought... if these are coming out a rifle, could the brass be hitting something in the rifle on the way out that is leaving the mark.  Those two pieces of brass with the practically identical marks mean this is a repeatable issue that will continue until the source is found.  

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Thanks fellow cowboys. Your replies gave me a few ideas, and enough incentive to prep the cases and fire them again. First step was to polish the cases with some fine emery. I then cleaned them and resized them. A quick trim and some more emery on the case mouth and one more cleaning. There were 6 in total, so I loaded them and test fired them. 

 

After polishing them with fine emery I examined them with a 10X eye loop. The marks fit with, confirmed, the suggested cause. The marks were fine gouges, not cracks, and in all likelihood during loading, feeding and/or ejecting in one of my rifle. I've shot 44-40 in a '94 Commemorative, a vintage '92, a Rossi R92 and a '73 Uberti rifle, so one of those could be the culprit.

 

I've segregated all the "fired in a 45" and surprisingly they are holding up rather well. I lubed and sized them as normal and all was good. 44-40 brass does not expand much past the neck when fired in a 45. The area that had gouges doesn't touch the chamber. I've included a picture of some 44-40 cases that went through a 45 for the second time. I will not resurrect them again.

 

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To fully expand they would need to be loaded hotter than mild cowboy.

 

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The chamber on the left is a bad one, and although a fired case has to be forcibly removed it doesn't appreciable mark the case wall. That cylinder is marked, and I do not load it. I've been promised a new cylinder on warranty.

 

BB

 

 

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Clean your dies and use lube when resizing. When I start seeing thise kinds of scrapes on my brass I know it's time to clean my dies or start using case lube more often. I only lube maybe 1 in 4 cases. Works for me. Ymmv

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1 hour ago, Savvy Jack said:

Why are you shooting the 44's in a 45?

Seals to the chamber walls better and prevents blowby when shooting bp in a 45. Or in most cases a complete accident and a 44 got mixed in with the 45 brass so just send it. 

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I will bet money that the inside of your sizing die is galled. I've had it happen at least twice. I scrape it off the inside of the die the best I can with a dental pick and polish with a Dremel buffing pad and Flitz polish. I use Sharp Shoot R Royal case lube on my 44-40 cases.
My .357 and .45 dies are carbide so they don't have that problem.

 

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On 3/30/2022 at 2:30 PM, "Big Boston" said:

To summarize, some of the brass had been fired in a 45 Colt, some is fairly old, some may have been sized in a scratchy die, some could have been stepped on, straightened out and reused.

 

Take pride in what you do, stop using scrap brass used by who knows who in who knows what. Take care of your equipment. And for God's sake, stop shooting 44-40 cartridges in a 45 Colt, it just ain't Kosher! In reality it shows a lack of upbringing or caring. Sure, accidents do happen...ask me how I know...LOL!


Based only on what I see.....

  • Two pieces of brass have the same exact IMPRINT marks, chamber issues
  • Your dies are dirty and scratching the brass, abrasive die issues.
  • Loads expanding brass into the cylinder walls of a revolver, High Pressure Load issues
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I kinda snicked at those "cowboys" that had fired 44-40 in a 45 Colt, until it happened to me. 

 

All on me, I owned that error, and no more snickers. 

 

The thing about these "incidents" is that you have to take them in perspective. One day a few years back I was in a gunshop, listening to the locals tell stories and bust each others balls. One of the gentlemen said to an obviously experienced and knowledgeable shooter, " that was an heck of a ND (negligent discharge) you had at the last meet. (IPSC or something like it). To his credit, he owned it, gave a detailed recounting of the incident, and then said this, "the thing is, if you shoot enough, long enough, you will experience an incident". 

 

That was before I started shooting more and before beginning my cowboy days. And yes, I've experienced a few incidents. Although I'm a bit arrogant, I'm realistic as well, so I don't say "It'll never happen to me". But, I try and remind myself reloading or shooting, to be aware, so that it won't be today. 

 

UPDATE: I sent a picture along with a short description to Starline, and in short order got support. Starline said they would look at the cases, just to send them 6. 

 

" It’s kind of hard to tell from pictures. I’ve seen brass look like that when not properly annealed, but generally those are actually cracks. I have seen gouges look like that as well, especially after being ironed out after being fired/resized a couple of times. I’d be happy to inspect them for you to give you a better idea of what it may be, but it sounds like they aren’t really causing you any problems. May not be worth your postage."

 

 

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I shoot 44 WCF and have since I started SASS in the 1990s. I have occasionally got a little grit in my  dies and scratched cases. I have never seen cases scratched like that. The 2 outside cases defects are really deep, the middle ones scratches look more like dirty die damage.. I agree with with G. J. I’d closely inspect my chamber walls for burrs or other defects.

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