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Wouldn't be surprised to see the whole category structure change.  Pick an age range, pick the "style" and run with it.

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Funny you should bring this up. 

 

I know some matches have discussed this very topic. Historically, the age breakdowns started at the Senior level, Senior Duelist being one of the first, if memory serves.

 

However, why limit it to senior and above? If enough folks wanted to shoot in 49'er duelist, and you had enough to fill both the base category of Duelist and the additional category of 49'er duelist, why not (with everything else being the way it is)? 

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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Funny you should bring this up. 

 

I know some matches have discussed this very topic. Historically, the age breakdowns started at the Senior level, Senior Duelist being one of the first, if memory serves.

 

However, why limit it to senior and above? If enough folks wanted to shoot in 49'er duelist, and you had enough to fill both the base category of Duelist and the additional category of 49'er duelist, why not (with everything else being the way it is)? 

It seems what’s good for the goose should be good for the gosling. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Wouldn't be surprised to see the whole category structure change.  Pick an age range, pick the "style" and run with it.

 

I have seen matches send out registration forms that way. Then, the match will collapse folks down to fill categories based on their published minimum guidance.

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I want a category for 44 year olds shooting whatever style they want with whatever sass approved guns they want dressed in whatever sass approved clothing they want. We'll call it the 44 modern open category. Unless there's someone else gonna shoot in it. Then we can narrow it down by hair color and propensity for eating nanner splits.

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I want a category for 44 year olds shooting whatever style they want with whatever sass approved guns they want dressed in whatever sass approved clothing they want. We'll call it the 44 modern open category. Unless there's someone else gonna shoot in it. Then we can narrow it down by hair color and propensity for eating nanner splits.

Lol. I’m not for adding more categories, but SASS already opened that gate. All I’m suggesting is that a junior shooter who wants to shoot duelist or classic cowboy, etc. maybe should be allowed to do that against other people in their own age group, unless of course the reasoning for allowing it only in the senior categories is just because the good ole boys have the reins and the kids don’t. 

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6 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

unless of course the reasoning for allowing it only in the senior categories is just because the good ole boys have the reins and the kids don’t. 

 

Wasn't the reason something to the effect of that as we age our reflexes and abilities diminish?

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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Wasn't the reason something to the effect of that as we age our reflexes and abilities diminish?

Yeah…. Let me know how many junior shooters placed above silver seniors at EOT…. 

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3 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Lol. I’m not for adding more categories, but SASS already opened that gate. All I’m suggesting is that a junior shooter who wants to shoot duelist or classic cowboy, etc. maybe should be allowed to do that against other people in their own age group, unless of course the reasoning for allowing it only in the senior categories is just because the good ole boys have the reins and the kids don’t. 

Yep it's pretty open. I think all categories can shoot duelist style already. I don't see a problem with all age based categories being called a duelist style category as well as long as there's enough folks to do it. I know some of the gunfighters are pretty much against it. Seems like we're split by style as well as age and dress. There's b western that is shooting style open but dress/gun specific and then classic cowboy that is shooting style specific and dress/guns specific.

What if age was the major split with everything stemming off of it? Ah, nevermind. I talked myself into ice cream. I'm going to get a bowl!

 

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Yep it's pretty open. I think all categories can shoot duelist style already. I don't see a problem with all age based categories being called a duelist style category as well as long as there's enough folks to do it. I know some of the gunfighters are pretty much against it. Seems like we're split by style as well as age and dress. There's b western that is shooting style open but dress/gun specific and then classic cowboy that is shooting style specific and dress/guns specific.

What if age was the major split with everything stemming off of it? Ah, nevermind. I talked myself into ice cream. I'm going to get a bowl!

 

Dammit, now I wan ice cream. You’re a bad influence. 

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Just now, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Dammit, now I wan ice cream. You’re a bad influence. 

 

I'll stick with whiskey :P

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It was discussed at the EOT TG meeting to allow Juniors to shoot Gunfighter style, to see if they wanted to shoot it when they got out of Junior. Buckaroo/Buckarette were, specifically not going to be allowed to do that until they got to Junior.

Other "age based" category/style changes were discussed and decided to leave it the way it is. 

Of course, local matches can do what they will.

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3 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

It was discussed at the EOT TG meeting to allow Juniors to shoot Gunfighter style, to see if they wanted to shoot it when they got out of Junior. Buckaroo/Buckarette were, specifically not going to be allowed to do that until they got to Junior.

Other "age based" category/style changes were discussed and decided to leave it the way it is. 

Of course, local matches can do what they will.

I know, I know. 
we need those protected categories because “the old folks aren’t as good at this as those youngsters”. 
but we can’t let the youngsters shoot gunfighter because “they aren’t good enough at this”.


But yeah, my question also includes categories like classic cowboy and B-western. 

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28 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Lol. I’m not for adding more categories, but SASS already opened that gate. All I’m suggesting is that a junior shooter who wants to shoot duelist or classic cowboy, etc. maybe should be allowed to do that against other people in their own age group, unless of course the reasoning for allowing it only in the senior categories is just because the good ole boys have the reins and the kids don’t. 

It was discussed at the EOT,  T.G. Meeting to let Juniors shoot whatever style they wanted including Gunfighter to try it before they moved up.  I don’t think anything was decided.

 

 Randy 

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1 minute ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Nothing.

 

To the point I was trying to make, if a 10-year-old wants to shoot gunfighter, they just do it in the junior category and not the buckaroo.

 

They'll just have to do that with centerfire ammo and not rimfire.

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

To the point I was trying to make, if a 10-year-old wants to shoot gunfighter, they just do it in the junior category and not the buckaroo.

 

They'll just have to do that with centerfire ammo and not rimfire.

 Correct. 
And no sub-gauge shotguns. 

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2 minutes ago, Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L said:

49’r was first age based category. 

 

You're probably right, on the age-based category side. I was thinking of and breaking down the shooting style categories, and, if I remember Duelist category was the first with an age subdivision spelled out in the shooter's handbook. My mistake for not making that more clear.

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2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

So, the concern isn't really about a buckaroo or buckarette aged participant shooting gunfighter as much as it is a buckaroo or buckarette age participant shooting gunfighter with rimfire ammunition and 410 shotguns?

If people are under the impression that rimfire allows an unfair advantage.  I don't believe there is any speed benefit to a young shooter using rimfire.  My experience with my son Lever Action Kid is the 22 pistols can't take the abuse of being ran like a vaquero.  There is no reloading a 22LR Henry on the clock.  There were some amazing buckaroos at EOT this year all of them were shooting vaqueros, 73s and 12ga shotguns.  

 

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2 hours ago, Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L said:

49’r was first age based category. 

Au Contraire... Senior was the first age-based category... 1st Senior EOT winner was McCloud, SASS #576 in 1989.  Junior started in 1989 with Calico, SASS#855 being the first winner.  It was divided in 1993 into Jr. Boys & Jr. Girls:  Sharpshooter winning Boys, and Lil' Bit of Wyoming as Jr. Girls champion.  Elder Statesman 1st appeared at EOT in 1999 with Deaf Laws, SASS #6889, also winning in 2000.  Senior Duelist appeared in 2001 with Rimfire Ray, SASS #7433 as winning EOT that year.  The first 49er EOT winner was Lassiter Thunder, SASS #22846 in 2003.

 

Duelist was first recognized at EOT in 1993 with Tex, SASS #4 winning.  While differing slightly from its form today, Frontiersman began in 1986 being won by Smuck, SASS #160. 

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Do not agree with adding anymore categories.  Maybe we could start combining shooting styles with age based categories.  Shoot whatever style you want in your age based category.  Plainsmen would be the exception.  We are seeing more and more gunfighters kicking ass, there is a B Western shooter that is always at the top, I remember a young duelist who could run with the best, and black powder shooters have shown they can kill it.  I know this is not a popular view.   I understand the logic in this thread but we are teaching our young folks what entitled really is. 

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11 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

So, the concern isn't really about a buckaroo or buckarette aged participant shooting gunfighter as much as it is a buckaroo or buckarette age participant shooting gunfighter with rimfire ammunition and 410 shotguns?

No, the problem was control, or lack of it, by the very young shooters.

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21 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

No, the problem was control, or lack of it, by the very young shooters.

 

As a buckaroo aged shooter can compete in three separate age-based categories (buckaroo, junior, or cowboy), how does restricting the buckaroo category from shooting in the gunfighter style restrict the very young shooters from shooting in the gunfighter style?

 

Just to be clear, today, nothing in our rules prevents a 10 year old from shooting in the Gunfighter Category at a match. They just cannot shoot in the Gunfighter Style in the Buckaroo Category.

 

As an aside, I would also suggests that I have seen some aged cowboys with control, or lack of it, issues as of late as well. Do we also restrict them from shooting in the gunfighter style?

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Jack, you know that buckaroos/ettes weren't allowed to shoot until the early 2000s, weren't a recognized category until 2005.  When I started shooting the minimum age for ANY shooter was 12.  And gunfighter wasn't allowed.  In fact, Duelist was actively discouraged.  There were many discussions about whether to ever allow either style, either with or without some form of qualification.  These discussions were sometimes hotly contested.  Both the minimum age and shooting style things.

 

While a couple of the local clubs allowed my son to shoot before he turned 12, it was only with close supervision of the parent... and not wrongly IMO.

 

Sometimes, the wishes of children should be denied.  Sometimes, it's best if parental wishes were ignored.  Just because lil' Johnny watches Dad run the 26" chainsaw in cutting firewood, and wants to do so... doesn't mean lil' Johnny should be allowed to do so.  And, quite frankly, age has little to do with it.  Size, maturity and understanding of the dangers are far more important than mere age.  And just because lil' Davey, who's 4 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier than lil' Johnny, and has the physical ability to safely handle the revolvers, and even tho' they're the same age, doesn't mean they have the same understanding and maturity as the other.  

 

Adding more categories simply means diluting the existing ones.  How a parent allows their child to practice at their home club or at their practice range, and allows them to develop skills beyond what their categories allow, is immaterial to the spirit of competition.  So what if 2 or even 10 buckaroos/ettes develop gunfighter/duelist skills at their home ranges and want to compete at the next World's...     And believe me when I say that our Buckaroos/ettes & Jr shooters are probably the most mature group of their age groups in the rest of North America! 

 

We as a society said that one should be 15-½ before one can get a learner's permit to drive, and have to be 16 and pass certain skill/knowledge tests before we're allowed to drive without adult supervision...   One needs to be 18 to own a handgun... And while I can agree with the argument that those are arbitrary age restrictions... are we worse off as a society because of them?   I was 12 when my Dad taught me to drive... although I had to wait another 3-½ years to practice those skills on the streets and road around our hometown... Just as when I was 15 and bought my first car, I wanted to drive right away... (never mind the fact that it didn't run and would take more'n 6 months for me to fix it)... society said I wasn't old enough... waiting that 6 months didn't hurt me in the least... just as waiting until they're 17 and/or are big enough and mature enough for their parents to allow them shoot "cowboy" to take on gunfighter and duelist challenges will not hurt them in the least.  

 

Y'all do understand the parental consent required to shoot in matches, don'cha?  I believe our local clubs all require parental consent below the age of 18.

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28 minutes ago, Griff said:

Jack, you know that buckaroos/ettes weren't allowed to shoot until the early 2000s, weren't a recognized category until 2005.  When I started shooting the minimum age for ANY shooter was 12.  And gunfighter wasn't allowed.  In fact, Duelist was actively discouraged.  There were many discussions about whether to ever allow either style, either with or without some form of qualification.  These discussions were sometimes hotly contested.  Both the minimum age and shooting style things.

 

While a couple of the local clubs allowed my son to shoot before he turned 12, it was only with close supervision of the parent... and not wrongly IMO.

 

Sometimes, the wishes of children should be denied.  Sometimes, it's best if parental wishes were ignored.  Just because lil' Johnny watches Dad run the 26" chainsaw in cutting firewood, and wants to do so... doesn't mean lil' Johnny should be allowed to do so.  And, quite frankly, age has little to do with it.  Size, maturity and understanding of the dangers are far more important than mere age.  And just because lil' Davey, who's 4 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier than lil' Johnny, and has the physical ability to safely handle the revolvers, and even tho' they're the same age, doesn't mean they have the same understanding and maturity as the other.  

 

Adding more categories simply means diluting the existing ones.  How a parent allows their child to practice at their home club or at their practice range, and allows them to develop skills beyond what their categories allow, is immaterial to the spirit of competition.  So what if 2 or even 10 buckaroos/ettes develop gunfighter/duelist skills at their home ranges and want to compete at the next World's...     And believe me when I say that our Buckaroos/ettes & Jr shooters are probably the most mature group of their age groups in the rest of North America! 

 

We as a society said that one should be 15-½ before one can get a learner's permit to drive, and have to be 16 and pass certain skill/knowledge tests before we're allowed to drive without adult supervision...   One needs to be 18 to own a handgun... And while I can agree with the argument that those are arbitrary age restrictions... are we worse off as a society because of them?   I was 12 when my Dad taught me to drive... although I had to wait another 3-½ years to practice those skills on the streets and road around our hometown... Just as when I was 15 and bought my first car, I wanted to drive right away... (never mind the fact that it didn't run and would take more'n 6 months for me to fix it)... society said I wasn't old enough... waiting that 6 months didn't hurt me in the least... just as waiting until they're 17 and/or are big enough and mature enough for their parents to allow them shoot "cowboy" to take on gunfighter and duelist challenges will not hurt them in the least.  

 

Y'all do understand the parental consent required to shoot in matches, don'cha?  I believe our local clubs all require parental consent below the age of 18.

Yes but, with the current rules, a 10 year old kid can sign up for EOT and shoot gunfighter in the gunfighter category. My question is would they be allowed to elect to shoot against other junior gunfighters as opposed to having to shoot in the “mens” category? 

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37 minutes ago, Griff said:

Jack, you know that buckaroos/ettes weren't allowed to shoot until the early 2000s, weren't a recognized category until 2005.  When I started shooting the minimum age for ANY shooter was 12.  And gunfighter wasn't allowed.  In fact, Duelist was actively discouraged.  There were many discussions about whether to ever allow either style, either with or without some form of qualification.  These discussions were sometimes hotly contested.  Both the minimum age and shooting style things.

 

While a couple of the local clubs allowed my son to shoot before he turned 12, it was only with close supervision of the parent... and not wrongly IMO.

 

Sometimes, the wishes of children should be denied.  Sometimes, it's best if parental wishes were ignored.  Just because lil' Johnny watches Dad run the 26" chainsaw in cutting firewood, and wants to do so... doesn't mean lil' Johnny should be allowed to do so.  And, quite frankly, age has little to do with it.  Size, maturity and understanding of the dangers are far more important than mere age.  And just because lil' Davey, who's 4 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier than lil' Johnny, and has the physical ability to safely handle the revolvers, and even tho' they're the same age, doesn't mean they have the same understanding and maturity as the other.  

 

Adding more categories simply means diluting the existing ones.  How a parent allows their child to practice at their home club or at their practice range, and allows them to develop skills beyond what their categories allow, is immaterial to the spirit of competition.  So what if 2 or even 10 buckaroos/ettes develop gunfighter/duelist skills at their home ranges and want to compete at the next World's...     And believe me when I say that our Buckaroos/ettes & Jr shooters are probably the most mature group of their age groups in the rest of North America! 

 

We as a society said that one should be 15-½ before one can get a learner's permit to drive, and have to be 16 and pass certain skill/knowledge tests before we're allowed to drive without adult supervision...   One needs to be 18 to own a handgun... And while I can agree with the argument that those are arbitrary age restrictions... are we worse off as a society because of them?   I was 12 when my Dad taught me to drive... although I had to wait another 3-½ years to practice those skills on the streets and road around our hometown... Just as when I was 15 and bought my first car, I wanted to drive right away... (never mind the fact that it didn't run and would take more'n 6 months for me to fix it)... society said I wasn't old enough... waiting that 6 months didn't hurt me in the least... just as waiting until they're 17 and/or are big enough and mature enough for their parents to allow them shoot "cowboy" to take on gunfighter and duelist challenges will not hurt them in the least.  

 

Y'all do understand the parental consent required to shoot in matches, don'cha?  I believe our local clubs all require parental consent below the age of 18.

Societal restrictions really peeve me off. Some of those parents don't want to tell the little boys to go in the boys restroom. They want them to decide. Where was that when I was growing up? I can tell you which one I'd have been in and it ain't because I'd identify as girl either! Of course I'd have been wondering why there wasn't a urinal in there, but still. My daughter joined SASS at 5 and shot with me at home since she was 6. Revolvers, rifle, and 12ga skb. I can't get her to come to a match with me because of basketball but that doesn't mean she couldn't. She's 11 now and been shooting pistols for 5 years. Would I let her shoot gunfighter? No. I'm too dumb to do that myself. I think it depends on the kid too. But society can keep their parenting to themselves.

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