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2022 EOT TG Minutes


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As we all know, some stages are referred to as being Gunfighter friendly.  Allowing people to shoot a style that is "friendly" depending on the situation, by definition, is an advantage to those able to shoot both one and two pistols depending on the stage. 

However, I also believe there is a safety issue that SASS must consider.  Obviously, Gunfighter style can be shot safely.  That's been proven.  However, it must also be acknowledged that those who shoot Gunfighter style are a self-selected group.  I don't feel comfortable shooting with my weak hand which is why I will never shoot gunfighter style.  I simply don't have the motor skills and strength in my left hand to shoot it safely.  I suspect there are many others like me. 

This means I, and those like me, would either a) be at a competitive disadvantage since we are unable to switch to shoot whatever style was "friendly" at any given stage, or b) be tempted to shoot a style we aren't naturally suited or inclined to shoot.  Competition is secondary but real, and incentives work.  SASS would end up encouraging shooters to shoot a style they aren't naturally inclined to shoot. 

This is where the safety issue arises.  I would encourage SASS, the RO committee, and the TG's to give this aspect a great deal of thought before changing rules that incentivize the vast majority of open shooters to take up a style they purposely don't use.

If Gunfighters want expanded age brackets create them, but don't disadvantage the rest of us by creating an uneven playing field based on one's ability (or inability) to take advantage of a stage's "friendliness."  This proposal seems designed to benefit a small subset of SASS shooters. 

I don't think mixing one handed shooters and two handed shooters is good for SASS or the vast majority of its members. 

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55 minutes ago, AABB said:

As we all know, some stages are referred to as being Gunfighter friendly.  Allowing people to shoot a style that is "friendly" depending on the situation, by definition, is an advantage to those able to shoot both one and two pistols depending on the stage. 

However, I also believe there is a safety issue that SASS must consider.  Obviously, Gunfighter style can be shot safely.  That's been proven.  However, it must also be acknowledged that those who shoot Gunfighter style are a self-selected group.  I don't feel comfortable shooting with my weak hand which is why I will never shoot gunfighter style.  I simply don't have the motor skills and strength in my left hand to shoot it safely.  I suspect there are many others like me. 

This means I, and those like me, would either a) be at a competitive disadvantage since we are unable to switch to shoot whatever style was "friendly" at any given stage, or b) be tempted to shoot a style we aren't naturally suited or inclined to shoot.  Competition is secondary but real, and incentives work.  SASS would end up encouraging shooters to shoot a style they aren't naturally inclined to shoot. 

This is where the safety issue arises.  I would encourage SASS, the RO committee, and the TG's to give this aspect a great deal of thought before changing rules that incentivize the vast majority of open shooters to take up a style they purposely don't use.

If Gunfighters want expanded age brackets create them, but don't disadvantage the rest of us by creating an uneven playing field based on one's ability (or inability) to take advantage of a stage's "friendliness."  This proposal seems designed to benefit a small subset of SASS shooters. 

I don't think mixing one handed shooters and two handed shooters is good for SASS or the vast majority of its members. 

Who are you...I mean...really.

 

Phantom

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59 minutes ago, AABB said:

As we all know, some stages are referred to as being Gunfighter friendly.  Allowing people to shoot a style that is "friendly" depending on the situation, by definition, is an advantage to those able to shoot both one and two pistols depending on the stage. 

However, I also believe there is a safety issue that SASS must consider.  Obviously, Gunfighter style can be shot safely.  That's been proven.  However, it must also be acknowledged that those who shoot Gunfighter style are a self-selected group.  I don't feel comfortable shooting with my weak hand which is why I will never shoot gunfighter style.  I simply don't have the motor skills and strength in my left hand to shoot it safely.  I suspect there are many others like me. 

This means I, and those like me, would either a) be at a competitive disadvantage since we are unable to switch to shoot whatever style was "friendly" at any given stage, or b) be tempted to shoot a style we aren't naturally suited or inclined to shoot.  Competition is secondary but real, and incentives work.  SASS would end up encouraging shooters to shoot a style they aren't naturally inclined to shoot. 

This is where the safety issue arises.  I would encourage SASS, the RO committee, and the TG's to give this aspect a great deal of thought before changing rules that incentivize the vast majority of open shooters to take up a style they purposely don't use.

If Gunfighters want expanded age brackets create them, but don't disadvantage the rest of us by creating an uneven playing field based on one's ability (or inability) to take advantage of a stage's "friendliness."  This proposal seems designed to benefit a small subset of SASS shooters. 

I don't think mixing one handed shooters and two handed shooters is good for SASS or the vast majority of its members. 

I think by the time a shooter gets to the point that changing shooting styles makes them more competitive, they've reached a point where your concerns no longer apply.

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On 3/23/2022 at 8:23 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Link is not working now 

OLG 

I just used it, & it worked fine for me.

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On 3/26/2022 at 9:07 PM, Tennessee williams said:

One point to make would be there hasn't YET been a gunfighter win the world overall. Close, but not yet. For the AVERAGE gunfighter style shooter transitions are hurt. That makes up some difference. Keep in mind, I'm a duelist not a gunfighter.


The last two male Texas State overall champions was the same Gunfighter. I don’t know if he’s shot at EOT though. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Houston CAS said:


The last two male Texas State overall champions was the same Gunfighter. I don’t know if he’s shot at EOT though. 

 

You bet, my deputy Posse Marshall, Rusty Remington.  Rusty won Gunfighter there also.  Great individual as well as shooter. 

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Thinking gunfighter’s have an advantage over two-handed shooters is a fallacy and it seems only those who can’t shoot gunfighter believe it.  First, we are shooting with each hand unsupported which is not as inherently accurate as holding a gun with both hands.  Second, we are cocking one-handed which means more gun movement from the action of cocking.  Third, we switch focus from one gun to the other with each shot.  And fourth, while we don’t have the transition from one pistol to the other, we DO have a bad transition to the next gun after pistols.

With few exceptions there are no scenarios which are an advantage to gunfighters, however there are many that are unfriendly and certainly put a gunfighter at much more of a disadvantage over other shooting styles.

 

We don’t shoot gunfighter for an advantage, we do it because we find it to be more fun and enjoy the challenge.

 

Possum

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21 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Thinking gunfighter’s have an advantage over two-handed shooters is a fallacy and it seems only those who can’t shoot gunfighter believe it.

 

You do it so dang well, that it sure seems like an advantage. Even with all that smoke getting in the way.  :P

 

I wish I could shoot gunfighter, but my left hand just won't cooperate.

 

Totes

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2 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

 

You do it so dang well, that it sure seems like an advantage.

 

And, the thing that folks forget, and as you allude to @Totes Magoats, @Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 doesn't have an advantage because he shoots gunfighter. He has an advantage because he put in the work and put in the trigger time in order to perfect his chosen skill.

 

Most of us choose a shooting style and stick with it. Each time we go out, we get just a bit better.

 

Few are wiling to put in the effort to reach an expert level of something. Some research studies indicate that folks can achieve that level in some skills with as little as 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. While even more studies will dispute the 10k number and provide reasons why more or less time is required, all the research reaches a common conclusion. In order to reach that level, you need to put in some level of work.

 

I bet, if we thought about it, while there are hundreds of shooters who have put in the time to reach expert level proficiency in one particular style of shooting, there are few in the game who have put in the time to do it in more than one shooting style - and can keep up that level of proficiency in both at the same time.

 

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of folks who could get good shooting in both the traditional and gunfighter styles. However, I'm talking about folks like @Sidekick and @Missouri Lefty.  These two are among the elites who could show up and win a major match in either style right now. They have won State and Regional matches in both styles, and Lefty is halfway there and has been "that close" to winning the big one in both styles.

 

All of this is to say that, for the rest of us, we aren't usually willing to put in the effort to be at a point where we are trying to figure out which shooting style we should use on a particular stage in order to have the lowest time. We'll continue to shoot in the style we are most comfortable with, and thus most proficient with, and try to shoot our best. If we are the best competitor that day, taking advantage of all the opportunities presented to us, we'll end up on the top of the scoresheet. If someone else put in more work, figured out a more efficient way to shoot, or let's face it - was touched by the hand of God and given a skill that we will just never have - we'll show up just a bit lower.

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56 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Thinking gunfighter’s have an advantage over two-handed shooters is a fallacy and it seems only those who can’t shoot gunfighter believe it.  First, we are shooting with each hand unsupported which is not as inherently accurate as holding a gun with both hands.  Second, we are cocking one-handed which means more gun movement from the action of cocking.  Third, we switch focus from one gun to the other with each shot.  And fourth, while we don’t have the transition from one pistol to the other, we DO have a bad transition to the next gun after pistols.

With few exceptions there are no scenarios which are an advantage to gunfighters, however there are many that are unfriendly and certainly put a gunfighter at much more of a disadvantage over other shooting styles.

 

We don’t shoot gunfighter for an advantage, we do it because we find it to be more fun and enjoy the challenge.

 

Possum

 

I switched to Gunfighter about. two years ago and I agree. It takes a while to get the cadence down, and you really  have to think differently than the others when doing a stage. Nevada Sweeps are a bit tricky, Progressive Sweeps are a real pain, and I love double tap sequences. I'm still not as fast at GF as I was in Cowboy. It is more fun though.

 

And if something goes wrong, it can really go wrong. I had a light primer strike during my last match, and cycling back around one-handed was incredibly slow and awkward for me, even with lowered hammers.

 

I fear if GF is allowed in any category, then the GF category will go away.

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6 hours ago, Houston CAS said:

 

I fear if GF is allowed in any category, then the GF category will go away

Gunfighter as a category isn't going anywhere.  If they allow Gunfighter in all age based categories the only thing that's going to change is that gunfighters shooting in let's say Wrangler will have the option of shooting traditional instead of duelist on a split pistol stage.

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