Recipe for 980 fps 12 gauge shotgun loads

[Paulo Pistolero]

Good morning everyone. Just started loading shotgun shells and need a recipe for a velocity my shoulder could appreciate. I like the Winchester AA low velocity 2 3/4 in shells. Prefer 7 1/2 or 8 shot. My club only allows 7 1/2 shot or smaller. I was able to obtain International Clays powder but am in the hunt for Hi skor 700x. Thank you all.    Paulo

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Get some Unique and use 17gn with 3/4-1 1/8 Oz of shot.

OLG 

[Montana Mike]

I would suggest that you go to the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center at https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

Select the components that you are using, or are going to use, and work up your load.

[Paulo Pistolero]

The lowest I could find in velocity is 1180 fps. I am

10 minutes ago, Montana Mike said:

I would suggest that you go to the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center at https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

Select the components that you are using, or are going to use, and work up your load.

Tried lowest in velocity is 1180 fps.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

You might widen your search a bit.  700-X is good for light loads but so is Hogdgon Clays and Alliant's Extra-Lite.  Hodgdon-branded products have been much more available than powders with other brands.  Use any SASS-legal shot you can obtain.  I'm shooting #8 1/2 in my CAS loads because that was what I could buy.  

[Paulo Pistolero]

1 hour ago, Montana Mike said:

I would suggest that you go to the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center at https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

Select the components that you are using, or are going to use, and work up your load.

Thanks Mike but my time is limited. Babysit twin girls twice a week and take care of elderly parents. I'm retired but busier now than when I was working!!  LOL!! I was really fishing for an actual load for the international clays someone already worked up.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I could give you a Clays load that works right now.  But International (the current name for the powder) really is not well suited to a light low velocity load because it just won't burn very reliably in that kind of load.  It's made for HEAVY target loads and hunting loads.

 

Yes, most published data has a minimum velocity of about 1100 or 1180 FPS.   That is what is needed for most clay pigeon games.  And hunting loads are usually even heavier and faster.    Cowboy shooters rely on a lot of testing and sharing between us cowboys, doing things with shotguns that the shotshell component suppliers never dreamed of 20 years ago.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

Remington STS hull

ClayBuster CB0175-12 wad 

Remington 209P or Winchester 209 primer

14.1 grains of Clays

3/4 ounce of shot

 

Remington STS hull

ClayBuster CB0175-12 wad 

Remington 209P or Winchester 209 primer

13 grains of 700-X

3/4 ounce of shot

 

In a blind test a shooter cannot tell them from the AA 980 shells.

 

Note that primer choice makes a difference. Federal primers will produce slightly more recoil than the AA 980shells.

 

[Paulo Pistolero]

Thank you Joe and Dave. I think I am just going to demand some alone time, LOL, and Load various bushing numbers and crony them. Joe's comment gives me concern that International Clays is a viable powder. Dave I will try to work around your Clays recipe because the International Clays is a close powder.

 

THANK YOU ALL!!

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I load on a MEC 650. A 27 bushing the appropriate Clay Buster wad and 3/4 or 7/8 oz shot with Red Dot, Clay Dot or Clays (not International) makes a very pleasant load. Most think it is lighter feeling than Winchester 980fps Featherlight loads.

 

 Randy 

[Roscoe Regulator]

The velocity depends on the weight of the shot load. Heavier is slower. But velocity is not the whole story. A fast powder is going to have a sudden burst of energy you will feel in your shoulder. I use 7/8 oz and cannot tell the difference between the same powder measure of Extralite versus Clays. A MEC 25 works for either. I don't believe recoil pads are illegal, at least the pad on my Baikal bought with one from Johnny Meadows has not been called out. Rather than seek an absolute velocity, I would just judge how the load is to shoot. A 12 gauge is not a pussy cat in any event.

[Sedalia Dave]

Hodgdon Clays and Clays International are two different powders. They are not interchangeable

[Paulo Pistolero]

34 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Hodgdon Clays and Clays International are two different powders. They are not interchangeable

Did not imply they were interchangeable but will try to see if reduction in grains of powder can get me close to sorting that works. It is so hard these days to just go out and get clays or 700x. I am trying to work with what I have.  Thank you though.

[Roscoe Regulator]

Hodgdon data indicates velocities higher for International than Clays, other variables equal except the higher weight powder charges for International. So International would not be a top candidate for minimal velocity. May be a case of making do with what is on hand.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

International is NOT an appropriate powder for what you are trying to do.  Smokeless powder requires a certain amount of pressure to get reliable ignition and to burn cleanly.  International is NOT suitable for light loads.  Everyone appreciates that powder is hard to find.  BUT just because you have one type of powder that does NOT mean you can get satisfactory results by totally ignoring the burn characteristics of that powder.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I load on a MEC 650. A 27 bushing the appropriate Clay Buster wad and 3/4 or 7/8 oz shot with Red Dot, Clay Dot or Clays (not International) makes a very pleasant load. Most think it is lighter feeling than Winchester 980fps Featherlight loads.

 

 Randy 

This +100

Been using this load (but with Green Dot) for 5 years. Very light recoil. Even the Buckaroos in our family (9, 10 and 13 year olds) have no problems with recoil. Shortcake loves it.

["Big Boston"]

AFAIK, the Winchester 980 fps load can only be duplicated with WaaLite powder. The Hodgdon site still lists loads for WaaLite, but it is no longer manufactured. 

 

You can find data for subsonic loads, and they will recoil less than a standard 1200 fps load, but the 980 load was and is a one off load. 

 

I've attached Ballistics pdf on subsonic loads.  

 

Shotgun ammunition works with a window of pressures. The maximum pressure is a specification to ensure safety. There is no SAAMI spec for minimum pressure, but I've examined a lot of data, and 6000 psi looks like the minimum. Much the same as with loading light pistol loads, not enough pressure usually means inconsistent burn and velocity variations. One important consideration is chamber sealing. below a certain pressure threshold, the hull is no longer able to seal off the gases and crud. In addition, instead of burning cleanly, hot clinkers escape the barrel and if you are shooting into a slight breeze, you get a bit more than smoke in the eyes. 

 

Just as in a pistol, light loads of slower than normal burn rate powders are not the answer. 

 

There is however one way to have low recoil shotgun ammunition, but it requires the use of Black Powder. It is entirely safe to reduce the powder below square to lower velocity and recoil. A square load is one where the shot scoop and powder scoop are one in the same. To make a light 1 1/8 oz load, just use the 1 oz scoop for the Black Powder. 

 

I've generalized a lot of the details, please complete your own research. 

 

Paper hulls and hulls with a paper base wad tend to "soften" the felt recoil. Using card and fiber wads instead of plastic can have a felt reduction in recoil. 

 

My intent is not to discourage your quest, I've hit a few dead ends in my quest for the same load, but I keep searching and experimenting. 

 

BB

00BSUB.pdf

[Eyesa Horg]

14 gr. Clays

Gray Claybuster wad CB0178

7/8 oz. #8

It chrono's abt. 1000fps out of my Stoeger. Even with a bad shoulder they seem as mild as a 980 AA.

 

 

 

 

[Paulo Pistolero]

Thank you all for your input. Looks like I will sit on the International and wait for 700-x or clays. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Or Alliant Extra-Lite.  It is made for light 7/8 oz. 12 gauge loads.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

10 minutes ago, Paulo Pistolero said:

Thank you all for your input. Looks like I will sit on the International and wait for 700-x or clays. 

Red Dot and Clay Dot are also good alternatives.

 

 Randy 

[Jack Spade]

I haven't chronographed it yet but I load 14.5 grains of American Select, gray winchester wad, STS hull, win 209 or cheddite primer 7/8 oz of shot.  As light or lighter than the AA LNLR loads.  I found this load when the LNLR loads disappeared a little over a year ago and I did a search for a replacement. 

[Last Call Saul]

Mec bushing 27 (14 gr ) of Clays, AA hulls, 7/8 oz #8, WAA12L wad or replacement Claybuster

 

primer - nowadays - whatever you can find

[Three Foot Johnson]

There was a shooter here who used 9.0 grains of Red Dot for years - good Lord, you could actually see the shot ball going downrange. He's since bumped it up to 10.0 grains, so maybe he finally got a wad stuck in the bore or something. I use 12.0 grains Red Dot with 7/8 oz shot.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I’ve tried 700x and I think clays, clay dot, and red dot are superior for light loads. My personal smokeless load is a 26 bushing  of clay dot or clays with 7/8 oz of shot and a gray wad and is a reliable, yet light recoiling load. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

7 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

14 gr. Clays

Gray Claybuster wad CB0178

7/8 oz. #8

It chrono's abt. 1000fps out of my Stoeger. Even with a bad shoulder they seem as mild as a 980 AA.

 

That was my recipe (14.5-15gr Clays), but my Clays supply is low so I switched to 15gr of WST.  Feels about the same.  I bought an 8 lb keg of WST last year so now using it for .38's, 12ga, and will use it for 45acp next time I reload those.

[J.D. Daily]

Wear a Past Mag Plus Recoil Pad under your shirt*.  Plus one for black powder & American Pioneer Powder.  BP & APP recoil is more of a shove than sharp recoil of smokeless.

*I wear a PAST pad when shooting clays & hunting ducks.  It eliminates the several days of shoulder soreness from firing a couple of boxes of shells and firing a few 3" steel shot shells or one 3 1/2" shell in my Benelli Super Black Eagle II.  The SBE's memory foam butt pad & energy absorbing stock helps a lot with the recoil; however, 3 1/2" steel shot shell's recoil is still brutal.

P.S.  3/4 & 7/8 oz featherlight equivalent loads won't cycle the SBE II.  The recoil doesn't cause your shoulder to accelerate rearward to generate enough gun inertia to compress the bolt spring far enough to unlock the rotating bolt from the bolt carrier.

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

There was a shooter here who used 9.0 grains of Red Dot for years - good Lord, you could actually see the shot ball going downrange. He's since bumped it up to 10.0 grains, so maybe he finally got a wad stuck in the bore or something. I use 12.0 grains Red Dot with 7/8 oz shot.

What Mr. Johnson says  ^^^^^.      12 to 14 gr of Red Dot or Promo,CB0178-12, 7/8 shot works great.

[watab kid]

".........

Remington STS hull

ClayBuster CB0175-12 wad 

Remington 209P or Winchester 209 primer

14.1 grains of Clays

3/4 ounce of shot

..........."

 

i basically use this with federal premium hulls  and balistic products wad, i could shoot both barrels with one hand extended and not have much issue , its a soft 980fps load that even forgives your mistakes should you make them , about equal to a 28ga load in a 12ga 

[Roscoe Regulator]

11 hours ago, Last Call Saul said:

Mec bushing 27 (14 gr ) of Clays, AA hulls, 7/8 oz #8, WAA12L wad or replacement Claybuster

 

primer - nowadays - whatever you can find

I have had good success with that formula except using the lighter yield #25 bushing, the same as I use with Extralite.

[Eyesa Horg]

11 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

That was my recipe (14.5-15gr Clays), but my Clays supply is low so I switched to 15gr of WST.  Feels about the same.  I bought an 8 lb keg of WST last year so now using it for .38's, 12ga, and will use it for 45acp next time I reload those.

I ran short of Clays as well last year and used the same recipe with Clay-Dot, and a few years ago 700-X.

["Big Boston"]

I happened upon this tip from a British shotgun forum, most shooters wanting a lower recoiling reduced velocity load use 2 1/2" hulls. The reduced air space allows the use of wads with shorter legs. In addition, in England, most farmers/herders and land owners don't want any plastic left in the fields so most use card and fiber wads. 

 

Hodgdon has 2 1/2" data.

 

Another tidbit I read, a roll crimped shell is gentler on the shoulder. I will be fact checking that. 

 

BB

[Texas Banker, SASS #20963]

12.5 grains of Clays will get you the AA load your looking for. If you are using a Mec loader that is a #23 bushing. If you try it and want just a little more punch use a #25 bushing. The difference in grains is minimal. I think you will like the load. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

...Another tidbit I read, a roll crimped shell is gentler on the shoulder. I will be fact checking that. 

 

BB

 

I think that would be for older guns that have shorter chambers/forcing cones.

[Eyesa Horg]

Lengthening and polishing the forcing cone will reduce recoil a bit as well.