Rule question

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

  all stages were read verbatim from the book.

Kudos for this^. The way it should be. Y'all are gonna make TN State again this year aren't you?

 

[Sixgun Seamus]

34 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Kudos for this^. The way it should be. Y'all are gonna make TN State again this year aren't you?

 

Just got confirmation from Dixie today. See you there.

[Tennessee williams]

1 minute ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Just got confirmation from Dixie today. See you there.

Sounds good!

[doc roy l. pain]

1 hour ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Just got confirmation from Dixie today. See you there.

Me too!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I plan to be there.  Red Knee, at this time, is making plans to be there.

 

Funny thing happened shortly after talking to him on the phone..... my right arm started hurting again.

Kinda felt like my wrist was broke or maybe my elbow was cracked.   Stuff like that happens as you

get older..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

33 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I plan to be there.  Red Knee, at this time, is making plans to be there.

 

Funny thing happened shortly after talking to him on the phone..... my right arm started hurting again.

Kinda felt like my wrist was broke or maybe my elbow was cracked.   Stuff like that happens as you

get older..... 

 

..........Widder

 

Yeah, I have a broken bone in my foot.  It will probably be better by TN State, but if I don't shoot well it will be because it didn't. 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

Seems like this conversation never takes place if the instructions simply said "make safe ON prop". Same result but If a duelist wants to hold it up at that point it would probably feel like an advantage instead of a disadvantage. Perception.....

[Widder, SASS #59054]

My thinking:

 

Because there are ALREADY rules and guidelines for safe handling of our firearms, "MAKE SAFE" should

be one of those instructions that shouldn't even be worded in the scenario..... period!

 

I agree that some of your good duelist can hold the SG and still fire their revolver with the other hand.

BUT, although you rarely see it from a GF,  the GF (as others also) can hold onto the SG and fire their

pistol.   WHY SINGLE OUT "DUELIST"?

 

Words that are basically useless/worthless and unnecessary in stage instructions are:

1. reholster.   Unless stage instruction state we can lay them on a prop, common sense tells us to reholster,

assuming there is no declared malfunction.

2. lay rifle/SG down with muzzle pointing down range.

3. make safe.   We should all know to 'make em safe' or else take up golf for a hobby.

 

Instructing a DUELIST to put SG butt on prop BEFORE firing their pistol is as bad as telling them

to move to a shooting position to shoot Pistol, then rifle....... but telling them they can't use their

off hand to grab their rifle while shooting their pistol.   Ridiculous.

 

Their transitions in matters such as these is what makes it unique to watch them.   They've MENTALLY

prepared for every move on such stages..... just as much as the top shooter who choreograph their

stage movements.

 

The next thing we know, somebody will dictate which foot we should start out on in our stage movements,

i.e..... "at the beep, move towards the 1st shooting position with your right foot stepping out first".

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

..........Widder

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Words that are basically useless/worthless and unnecessary in stage instructions are:

1. reholster.   Unless stage instruction state we can lay them on a prop, common sense tells us to reholster,

assuming there is no declared malfunction.

2. lay rifle/SG down with muzzle pointing down range.

3. make safe.   We should all know to 'make em safe' or else take up golf for a hobby.

THANK YOU!!!!

 

I never wrote this silly stuff in when I wrote stages...waste of space and time.

 

Locally...and elsewhere...when I see "make safe", I usually read it as "make unsafe". People look at me funny (which isn't anything new), and I say "What?! like is it okay to make unsafe?". The rules already tell us what a safe condition is...and that unless otherwise specified, revolvers go back to holsters...why restate this stuff??

 

So...thank you for bringing this up 

 

And it's been DAYS since we were to get an explanation on the "BUTT" requirement...can't be that hard to get this info...but I guess it is.

 

Phantom

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Words that are basically useless/worthless and unnecessary in stage instructions are:

1. reholster.   Unless stage instruction state we can lay them on a prop, common sense tells us to reholster,

assuming there is no declared malfunction.

2. lay rifle/SG down with muzzle pointing down range.

3. make safe.   We should all know to 'make em safe' or else take up golf for a hobby.

 

5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I never wrote this silly stuff in when I wrote stages...waste of space and time.

 

Here is another one:

 

Staging:

...Pistols are holstered...

 

Starting with 'revolvers holstered' is already covered in the SASS Conventions as well.

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Here is another one:

 

Staging:

...Pistols are holstered...

 

Starting with 'revolvers holstered' is already covered in the SASS Conventions as well.

 

 

And:

 

Open and empty shotgun staged at "X".

 

The list can go on and on and on......but will Stage Writers listen?

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

One of the few things Phantom and I agree with is adding extra words in instructions. Everyone should know SASS conventions. Adding them to every stage instruction just adds words and possibly confusion.  
 

in OP, the words restage shotgun would have worked. 
 

stage writing is not easy. I’m certainly no expert. I have noticed that what seems simple to me can be not as plain to others. I guess best advice is to not try to get fancy. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

in OP, the words restage shotgun would have worked. 

I don't even think that would have been necessary. If a shooter want to hold his/her SG while shooting both pistols, god bless 'em! It would NOT have been an advantage to do so.

 

Phantom

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And:

 

Open and empty shotgun staged at "X".

 

The list can go on and on and on......but will Stage Writers listen?

 

Phantom

 

Some do...I hear the guy who writes the SE Regional keeps trying to get better (and use less words) each year...

 

Then again, last year, he was overheard saying, "I don't care" a lot when folks asked those questions that get asked a lot. For instance, question: "It doesn't say I have to restage here. Can I restage there?" His response, "I don't care." 

 

It isn't that he doesn't care. But to yours and @Creeker, SASS #43022's point, so much though has been put into writing a stage that is category neutral, that everything else, like their question, was already thought about. If it was important, like take your gun with you and restage it over there (because they want you over there), it would have been said. By writing a stage in the way they did,  the actual response to the question is not "I don't care" as much as it is "it doesn't matter."

 

 

[Hoss]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't even think that would have been necessary. If a shooter want to hold his/her SG while shooting both pistols, god bless 'em! It would NOT have been an advantage to do so.

 

Phantom

Not disagreeing. But if writer wanted a shooter at a certain spot for whatever reason, that would  do the trick. 
 

I’ve seen many dualist cost themselves time or misses because they are trying to hard with the transition thing. Like miss the last shot with pistol because they are trying to pick up rifle etc. but yes. A good dualist can make up a lot of time with transitions! 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

7 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Some do...I hear the guy who writes the SE Regional keeps trying to get better (and use less words) each year...

 

Then again, last year, he was overheard saying, "I don't care" a lot when folks asked those questions that get asked a lot. For instance, question: "It doesn't say I have to restage here. Can I restage there?" His response, "I don't care." 

 

It isn't that he doesn't care. But to yours and @Creeker, SASS #43022's point, so much though has been put into writing a stage that is category neutral, that everything else, like their question, was already thought about. If it was important, like take your gun with you and restage it over there (because they want you over there), it would have been said. By writing a stage in the way they did,  the actual response to the question is not "I don't care" as much as it is "it doesn't matter."

 

 

I was thinking the starting line for every stage at the S E Regional this year might be "I Don't Care"?

 

Randy

[Tennessee williams]

25 minutes ago, Hoss said:

 

in OP, the words restage shotgun would have worked. 
 

 

What people are forgetting is the fact the instructions DO say to make the shotgun safe ON THE BOX. The revolvers also HAVE to be shot from that position as well. The additional duelist rule only adds for a possible procedural penalty for firing a shot off with the revolver before the shotgun buttstock is touching the table thereby limiting a transition. IMO

 

  The questionable duelist rule is specifically worded in the instructions on stages 4 and 11; however after looking at my notes in the shooter book, we were verbally given those instructions on more than those 2 stages. At the minimum we were given that instruction on stage 6 as well but that's the only additional one I noted in the book. Since I didn't do the walk-thru its possible PMs were given that as a blanket instruction for duelists. That is just a guess though.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

18 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

  The questionable duelist rule is specifically worded in the instructions on stages 4 and 11; however after looking at my notes in the shooter book, we were verbally given those instructions on more than those 2 stages. 

 

I kinda hate to ask, but were your stage instructions 'READ' verbatim from the book for each stage,

or was instructions given in a 'paraphrased' manner?

 

..........Widder

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

15 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I kinda hate to ask, but were your stage instructions 'READ' verbatim from the book for each stage,

or was instructions given in a 'paraphrased' manner?

 

..........Widder

 

I don't know about Ice Cream Boy, but our "Readings" were a cluster$*!@($!

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

38 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

What people are forgetting is the fact the instructions DO say to make the shotgun safe ON THE BOX.

Which is again, un-needed instructions. I mean...where else are we going to restate the SG? On the ground???

 

Ugh...

 

Phantom

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Which is again, un-needed instructions. I mean...where else are we going to restate the SG? On the ground???

 

Ugh...

 

Phantom

Agreed... Just saying it isn't feasible that the duelist rule was used for positioning. I'd like to know the reason it was used. I'd never seen or heard of it before. And I keep my nose buried in the shb when it's not hovering over ice cream.

[Tennessee williams]

29 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I kinda hate to ask, but were your stage instructions 'READ' verbatim from the book for each stage,

or was instructions given in a 'paraphrased' manner?

 

..........Widder

 

I hate to answer as much as you hate to ask but I think I'm gonna go get a nanner split.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

33 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I kinda hate to ask, but were your stage instructions 'READ' verbatim from the book for each stage

I hate to answer but not even remotely close!

 

Randy

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't know about Ice Cream Boy, but our "Readings" were a cluster$*!@($!

 

 

With a 2.5 hour walk through, kind of hard to imagine how that could happen. 

 

I'm still waiting for the walk through that makes the PMs finally say, "That was quick. Everything was in the book, and so easy to understand. I didn't have to write anything down. Kind of have to wonder, why did we have to do the walk through?"

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I hate to answer but not even remotely close!

 

Randy

I'm glad you answered. Sometimes I don't know when to stop.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

With a 2.5 hour walk through, kind of hard to imagine how that could happen. 

 

I'm still waiting for the walk through that makes the PMs finally say, "That was quick. Everything was in the book, and so easy to understand. I didn't have to write anything down. Kind of have to wonder, why did we have to do the walk through?"

The 2.5 hour walk through would be an indication to me that the Stages were not written well...and I as a Stage Writer would be worried.

 

Phantom

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The 2.5 hour walk through would be an indication to me that the Stages were not written well...and I as a Stage Writer would be worried.

 

Phantom

 

Either that or too much talking from the peanut gallery. But, you are absolutely right.

 

Oh...on my original post I forgot to add [sarcasm on] and [sarcasm off] to the initial sentence. That might also help to clear up any confusion to my initial response.

 

My bad!

[Tennessee williams]

13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The 2.5 hour walk through would be an indication to me that the Stages were not written well...and I as a Stage Writer would be worried.

 

Phantom

Yer inbox is full

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yer inbox is full

Sorry...I'm a hoarder.

 

Cleared room 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The 2.5 hour walk through would be an indication to me that the Stages were not written well...and I as a Stage Writer would be worried.

 

Phantom

Now....you know as well as I, that there are those who question EVERYTHING...TWICE.

As well as having folks following the walk through that truely don't need to be there, and are disruptive.

Lets all stop with the proverbial 'witch hunt'.

(A stage could say A, B, C.

The PM reads 1, 2, 3.

And the shooter will shoot apple, bannana and orange)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Now....you know as well as I, that there are those who question EVERYTHING...TWICE.

As well as having folks following the walk through that truely don't need to be there, and are disruptive.

Lets all stop with the proverbial 'witch hunt'.

(A stage could say A, B, C.

The PM reads 1, 2, 3.

And the shooter will shoot apple, bannana and orange)

This isn't a Witch Hunt...like the "Don't hold your Breath" response, discussions bring out ways to make things better. I'm not afraid of folks criticising my Stages / walk through / performance cuz I'm not perfect...but the criticism can help me get closer to perfect.

 

I've been involved with Posse Walk Through's for many years. I've never had one require 2.5 hours! This would indicate to me that something was wrong...and I would want to know what it was so that it doesn't happen again.

 

2.5 hours is an abuse of those that were PM's.

 

Phantom

[Tennessee williams]

15 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

 

(A stage could say A, B, C.

The PM reads 1, 2, 3.

Some could say the above can cause the below.

15 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

And the shooter will shoot apple, bannana and orange)

 

[Shooting Bull]

On the flip side of that coin is Posse 8 which was guided masterfully by Sixgun Seamus and his lovely assistant Realtree.  They alternated stage description duties. Both read word for word directly from the handbook. 

 

My ONLY complaint is that neither one would accept a bribe to wipe out my numerous penalties. 

[Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968]

I told myself that I was not going to get involved in this.............

 

Posse 13 was led by Bear Trap.

 

Read verbatim from the book.

 

Only special instructions for duelist were on two stages.  No other instructions or concerns for duelist shooters (we had three on our posse).

 

First time shooting with Bear Trap, but I would love to shoot with him and his family anytime.

 

I guess I should have had a "P" on every stage because when I lay down my shotgun the butt is not on the box, barrel and receiver are.

 

Kat and I walk the 4 stages we shoot the next day each evening and 20 minutes is all that was ever taken to look them over and plan our strategy.

 

Stages were not that complicated.

 

2.5 hr walk thru???- something not right.

 

I'm done.....

 

Vic

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

With a 2.5 hour walk through, kind of hard to imagine how that could happen. 

 

I'm still waiting for the walk through that makes the PMs finally say, "That was quick. Everything was in the book, and so easy to understand. I didn't have to write anything down. Kind of have to wonder, why did we have to do the walk through?"

My Posse Marshall "walk thru" were mostly virtual.

I always sent the stages to my PM's prior to the match for their review for phrases or terms.

I took great effort to ensure stages were actually set to look like the drawings.

I tried very hard to use the Goldilocks approach to instruction - not too much AND not too little.  (I am not a proponent of brevity over clarification {ink is cheap; if an additional five words are needed to eliminate a question or clarify an instruction - then I'll write them in - the time spent writing or reading is saved ten fold in fewer questions and debates}).

And if I did get question(s) from a PM or shooter walking the stages the day before the match - I typed those up with the response and provided the response to all of the PM's so they had an answer prepared.

 

Stage layout is easy.

GOOD stage layout is hard.

Writing a stage is easy.

CLEAR AND COMPLETE stage writing is hard.

 

PROPER stage writing consists of both GOOD stage layout (target placement, props and staging arrays) and CLEAR AND COMPLETE instructions that are category neutral, fair for shooters of vastly differing heights, shapes and sizes, consistently entertaining and accessible to shooters of all skill levels and experiences.

PROPER stage writing is a Challenge.