Rule question

[Tennessee williams]

10 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

I train and shoot with Tennessee Williams on a regular basis and I think the reason for questioning this is because he could have the first shot off from the first pistol before he would have the shotgun grounded. Not that he would hold the shotgun for the whole first pistol string.

 

Randy

You're correct as always Randy.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

Looks like the stage writer was trying to trap someone. I know a few duelist that could get a pistol shot off before staging the shotgun on this stage. Maybe a traditional or gunfighter didn’t think it fair for a duelist to have a quick transition. 
 

Just the view from my saddle

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

24 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Not all shooters

No disrespect intended Tennessee. I have shot with you and respect your ability.  I’m certainly glad I don’t have to write the stages for a world championship. I’m sure considering the experience of those who do there was a reason for that instruction

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Definitely not trying to be argumentative. The instructions said you had to shoot the pistols from that position anyway so you'd have to be close enough to ground it there regardless. 

  Also, we were asked how many duelists in the posse. We raised our hand and were told "y'all can shoot the pistols from the table but the butt stock on the shotgun has to be on the table FIRST. So BEFORE the first pistol shot goes down range the buttstock has to be on the table first."

  There was no mention in the book or instructions about duelist style. Only duelists.

  For duelists and especially me, everything is about timing and muscle memory. I know it seems minor to most shooters but it gets in your head to be going to a shooting position and saying "shotgun buttstock down first" "shotgun buttstock down first" and worrying about a P because it wasn't slid up enough on the table for the buttsock to be down before I pull the trigger. To me, the way it was explained is not a position thing, it's a get in your mind thing. 

 

No worries.

 

I prefer using vertical props and requiring rounds to “left” or “right” of the prop. That way no one has to look at their feet or worry about where the buttstock of their gun is. 
 

I hadn’t thought about “timing” aspect of that requirement. Another good reason to discuss items like this. Increases awareness for all. Thanks for the insight. 
 

Stan

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

If it's not in one of the "many rule books" or "conventions" of SASS, that 70% of the shooters are Senior+, at any match, then it shouldn't be in any match.   

Definitely sounds like "A Procedural Trap".  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

22 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

I’m certainly glad I don’t have to write the stages for a world championship

I'd LOVE to write the stages...

[Rattlesnake Slim]

It was just an option. It said "may" not "must". Do it if you want to, or don't. How is that a "P trap"? It is only an optional way to "make the shotgun safe on the box". Would you get the same Procedural penalty if you shot your first revolver before laying your shotgun down on the box?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

7 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

Would you get the same Procedural penalty if you shot your first revolver before laying your shotgun down on the box?

 

Yes. That is kind of the point they are making here. The shotgun had to be touching or laid upon the box before the first shot of the pistol, or it was a Procedural.

[Flying W Ramrod]

3 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Please read what I wrote.....I didn't say "Category".... I said "Style" 

 

Stan

Please re-read/edit your post, it states "Since Duelist are the only ones that can hold a long gun and shoot a pistol at the same time". Nowhere in the post does it say "style". It refers to Duelist, which is a category.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

It was just an option. It said "may" not "must". Do it if you want to, or don't. How is that a "P trap"? It is only an optional way to "make the shotgun safe on the box". Would you get the same Procedural penalty if you shot your first revolver before laying your shotgun down on the box?

What?

 

May hold the gun...well of course we can hold the gun. This is allowed...but all of a sudden it's not allowed unless the Butt is touching.

 

Sooooo...I guess you lost me on your post.

 

Phantom

[Maddog McCoy SASS #5672]

From reading this, they wanted the shotgun on the box before a pistol round when downrange. It would be possible to set your shotgun down with your left hand while drawing with your right hand and firing your 1st round before the shotgun was on the box. (if you are fast enough). Personally, I don't shoot duelist very often and my normal would be to discard the shotgun with one hand while drawing with the other and I would be rid of the shotgun long before i got my first shot downrange. Since I have seen some people getting pretty reckless discarding long guns in the past, this was an attempt to make sure the shotgun was safely staged before rounds were sent downrange.  (My Best Guess). I would be more concerned that i cleared and staged my shotgun correctly (Possible minor safety) as opposed to rushing my first pistol shot and possibly missing the target.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 minutes ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

From reading this, they wanted the shotgun on the box before a pistol round when downrange. It would be possible to set your shotgun down with your left hand while drawing with your right hand and firing your 1st round before the shotgun was on the box. (if you are fast enough). Personally, I don't shoot duelist very often and my normal would be to discard the shotgun with one hand while drawing with the other and I would be rid of the shotgun long before i got my first shot downrange. Since I have seen some people getting pretty reckless discarding long guns in the past, this was an attempt to make sure the shotgun was safely staged before rounds were sent downrange.  (My Best Guess). I would be more concerned that i cleared and staged my shotgun correctly (Possible minor safety) as opposed to rushing my first pistol shot and possibly missing the target.

But this is:

 

1. Contrary to the rules

2. Does not stop a person from "reckless discarding" their SG.

3. There are rules in place regarding unsafe gun handling.

 

So will we now put restrictions on how fast someone can move...run...for I've seen some pretty "Reckless" running in my time.

 

Phantom

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

39 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'd LOVE to write the stages...

Count me in that group as well.

I'm thinking I might have a thought or two that might be fun.

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

No disrespect intended Tennessee. I have shot with you and respect your ability.  I’m certainly glad I don’t have to write the stages for a world championship. I’m sure considering the experience of those who do there was a reason for that instruction

None taken Johnny! I actually got a phone call and hit post before I finished my thought. Hope all has been well!

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

That stage instruction for duelist and the shot gun was not nessary and as a duelist I thought it was unfair to anyone shooting duelist.  Especially anyone who practices shooting their first revolver while holding thier shotgun. Placing the butt on the table would have been a very awkward position for anyone.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I'm not certain how a  local rule that applies to anyone shooting one handed would be considered "Unfair".  Since the match is category based.  Could you elaborate as to the unfairness?

3 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

That stage instruction for duelist and the shot gun was not nessary and as a duelist I thought it was unfair to anyone shooting duelist.  Especially anyone who practices shooting their first revolver while holding thier shotgun. Placing the butt on the table would have been a very awkward position for anyone.

 

[Scarlett]

I was a PM and thought the instruction - mentioned in writing on two stages - but applied to every stage - was odd. There were no “foot faults” at this match and, I wondered why the duelists were singled out… the stages were WAY OPEN ENDED about staging SG and rifle anywhere safely…so the “butt rule” remains a mystery. Other than that oddity, I thought the stages were a lot of fun. Congrats, TW on a great match and EOT Championship! 

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

36 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Since the match is category based.

If the match is category based, then why call out an overall winner?

[Joe LaFives #5481]

11 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If the match is category based, then why call out an overall winner?

Are you saying that it's not category based?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Soooo...

 

What exactly was the purpose of the "Butt" requirement...?

 

Phantom

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

9 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Are you saying that it's not category based?

 

I'll agree that some awards are handed out for category placement.

 

However...

 

How is entry into the top gun shoot off decided? Is it category based?

 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I don't know what the "Butt" rule purpose was.  I believe one would need to ask Red River Wrangler.  However, someone above felt it was somehow unfair.  I don't see that.  Tennessee is an AMAZING shooter as is Randy and several other duelist's but I can safely say that this one rule didn't keep them from the overall prize.  AND I HAVE THE STAT's to prove it.   I ran a report on the stage placement to 30 places.  Tennessee's best showing in that list was 20th on Stage 8, and he showed up as 22nd on stage 4 and 23rd on stage 12.   On all of the other stages he didn't make the top 30. (I probably didn't make the top 300) but there you are.  So to say that this rule somehow held him and all the other duelist's back from winning the over all as Branchwater Jack seems to imply is not accurate.

 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I'll agree that some awards are handed out for category placement.

 

However...

 

How is entry into the top gun shoot off decided? Is it category based?

 

 

No but if a person wants to make the top gun shoot off they are handicapping themselves by not shooting either two handed or GF.  I have seen two duelist make the top gun shoot off in the past 20 years of EOT and Winter Range - Pecos Nick and Nuttin Graceful but neither won it though.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

11 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

So to say that this rule somehow held him and all the other duelist's back from winning the over all as Branchwater Jack seems to imply is not accurate.

 

Never implied that. I just took a bit of umbrage to the statement that a SASS match is category based. Kind of the same way folks took umbrage with me when I questioned whether overall was still necessary if the game was to be considered category based.

 

7 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

No but if a person wants to make the top gun shoot off they are handicapping themselves by not shooting either two handed or GF.

 

If the game is truly category based, why not have a top gun shoot off by shooting style?

 

I agree categories are a big part of the game. Probably agree with some folks who think the number of them has gotten a bit out of hand.

 

But as long as we are putting out overall and awarding additional accolades solely based on overall placement, it seems disingenuous to say that the game is category based.

 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

3 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Never implied that. I just took a bit of umbrage to the statement that a SASS match is category based. Kind of the same way folks took umbrage with me when I questioned whether overall was still necessary if the game was to be considered category based.

 

 

If the game is truly category based, why not have a top gun shoot off by shooting style?

 

I agree categories are a big part of the game. Probably agree with some folks who think the number of them has gotten a bit out of hand.

 

But as long as we are putting out overall and awarding additional accolades solely based on overall placement, it seems disingenuous to say that the game is category based.

 

 

So it would seem that your position is that we NOT give out an overall award for Man and Woman (different than the shoot off as you know).   Well petition SASS as they make the rules about that.    And how many shoot offs do we have?  One for each category, one for each style of shooter,  do we need one for the costume categories?  The top gun shoot off is entertainment generally.  To deny that this game is category based is what I feel is disingenuous since the winner of each is named a WORLD CHAMPION. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

So it would seem that your position is that we NOT give out an overall award for Man and Woman

 

Not really. My question asked a year or so ago was merely philosophical. Even if we got rid of awarding an overall, we all know everyone would gather around the score sheets to figure out who the fastest one is.

 

It's human nature.

 

They are both big parts of the game. To say that either one (categories or overall) defines it is just as vexing as the argument saying that you either play the game for fun or you are only here because you want to win a prize at any cost.

 

There are some who identify with the game in either or both lanes, and maybe even flip depending on how they look at it at that moment in time.

[Tennessee williams]

3 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I'm not certain how a  local rule that applies to anyone shooting one handed would be considered "Unfair".  Since the match is category based.  Could you elaborate as to the unfairness?

 

This answers my initial question of where it came from. It's a local rule. Above you underlined the word anyone. It didn't say anyone shooting one handed. It said duelists. Although I didn't say anything was unfair and I just wanted to know where the rule came from, I'd hate to think it threw my competition off. When someone doesn't shoot at that club regularly and doesn't know about the local customs, it comes as a surprise especially when it deviates from the SHB. 

2 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I don't know what the "Butt" rule purpose was.  I believe one would need to ask Red River Wrangler.  However, someone above felt it was somehow unfair.  I don't see that.  Tennessee is an AMAZING shooter as is Randy and several other duelist's but I can safely say that this one rule didn't keep them from the overall prize.  AND I HAVE THE STAT's to prove it.   I ran a report on the stage placement to 30 places.  Tennessee's best showing in that list was 20th on Stage 8, and he showed up as 22nd on stage 4 and 23rd on stage 12.   On all of the other stages he didn't make the top 30. (I probably didn't make the top 300) but there you are.  So to say that this rule somehow held him and all the other duelist's back from winning the over all as Branchwater Jack seems to imply is not accurate.

 

 

I did that well? Awesome! It's a great feeling for me to have finished where I did. I took a lot of lumps on the head from Randy's whoop stick.

 

I don't think BWJ was implying it kept me or anyone else from the overall and I don't want the point of my post to get lost. Duelist is my favorite category and I may be a bit protective of it but to me, I wouldn't insert a local rule into this match. It couldn't be to get the shooter into the correct shooting location because the instructions said revolvers had to be shot from there anyway. Also the shotgun had to be restaged there as well. The only thing it did was give a potential P to someone shooting in the duelist category(not traditional or gunfighter shooting duelist style)for firing the revolver before the buttstock of the shotgun touches the table. I firmly believe this is an unintentional side effect of an added rule not found in the SHB that someone may feel is unsafe. I just wanted to point out this irregularity so maybe it could be addressed for next time. I thoroughly enjoyed the match.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

This answers my initial question of where it came from. It's a local rule. Above you underlined the word anyone. ..

 

No I said "anyone shooting one handed".  That includes all duelists classes and Classic Cowboy I would assume. (but can't guarantee) I would have also assumed that it included GF's or traditional shooters that chose to shoot with one hand on that stage but again could not verify that.   If I were a PM, that is exactly the kind of question I would have asked during the PM meeting and am surprised that no apparently did.  You'd have to check that with what was said at the Posse Marshal meeting which I did not attend as Wednesday is a busy scoring day.  

  I also said it was a local rule - i.e. not in the SASS handbook, however. its not a Rough Rider standard or something that I've seen in here in Arizona so local is not really the right word.  I said to check with Red River Wrangler since he wrote either all or a lot of the stages for the most part.  He might have an excellent reason based on something that he has seen in the past at some match.  I do know that the stages have a LOT of thought put into them as to design and verbiage.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I firmly believe this is an unintentional side effect of an added rule not found in the SHB that someone may feel is unsafe.

 

It can also be said that it is a variable that could add inconsistency on a call that may or may not be made from posse to posse.

[Texas Jack Black]

 Looks like a woke rule .

[Tennessee williams]

5 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

No I said "anyone shooting one handed".  That includes all duelists classes and Classic Cowboy I would assume. (but can't guarantee) I would have also assumed that it included GF's or traditional shooters that chose to shoot with one hand on that stage but again could not verify that.  

Like I posted before though, the instructions said "duelists" not duelist style and the PM asked if there were any duelists on the posse. We raised our hands and he said, "yall can shoot the revolvers while holding the shotgun but the buttstock has to be touching the box FIRST". We can't go by assumptions just what is written and clarified by the PM. 

 

5 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

 

   He might have an excellent reason based on something that he has seen in the past at some match.  I do know that the stages have a LOT of thought put into them as to design and verbiage.

   I'd say it's an ever evolving thing for stage writers. They find stuff that works and continue to use it. They find stuff that looks good on paper but not so good in real life and drop it. To me, if this was about position its superfluous because you had to make sg safe at that position and revolvers had to be fired from that position also so you HAVE to be there anyway.

  The negative affects it has on a duelist vs other categories is it delays their first shot and messes with timing. It also introduces a potential P. There is also as BWJ pointed out, the potential inconsistency from posse to posse. I'm just saying that coming from my point of view maybe this is an added rule that shouldn't be.

[Anvil Al #59168]

15 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

I train and shoot with Tennessee Williams on a regular basis and I think the reason for questioning this is because he could have the first shot off from the first pistol before he would have the shotgun grounded. Not that he would hold the shotgun for the whole first pistol string.

 

Randy

 

 

YES.

I good Duelist could have the first shot going down range WHILE the shotgun is hitting the table. 

By the time he is at the 5th shot his hand will be on the 2nd gun and pulling. 

Not that I could do it. But really good ones like TW and HTH and some others could/do.

 

That's one of the fun things about shooting duelist is those type of transitions. 

And one of few things that helps equal the field with a two hander. 

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

If I were a PM, that is exactly the kind of question I would have asked during the PM meeting and am surprised that no apparently did.

Oh it could have been asked...but with a 2 1/2 hour PM Walk Thru...it could have been overlooked due to pure exhaustion. 

 

 

[Stump Water]

13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What exactly was the purpose of the "Butt" requirement...?

 

Pretty simple.  To make sure everyone shot pistols from the same spot.

 

"Butt" as you said earlier, a simple prop would have accomplished the same thing.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Stump Water said:

 

Pretty simple.  To make sure everyone shot pistols from the same spot.

 

"Butt" as you said earlier, a simple prop would have accomplished the same thing.

There was ZERO advantage regarding shooting position on this stage. The shooter had was moving to the table to finish a 4 shot SG string (last 2 SG targets). They had to put the SG down on the table before engaging the pistol targets...therefore they would have been at the table. The ONLY reason that myself and others can conclude from this requirement was to keep a person from shooting their first pistol one handed while the SG is being returned to the table...so...what, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second?

 

Holding the SG suspended while shooting your first pistol dry is NOT an advantage. Still holding onto it while you put the first pistol down or in holster and drawing and shooting your 2nd pistol dry while holding onto your SG is NOT an advantage. Therefore the only conclusion I can come to is that "They" felt it was a Safety issue...??? And if that's the case, then they are contradicting the SASS rules.

 

Frankly, I think "they" need to think about getting some Stage Writing Help...yes, I'm available.

 

Phantom