Rule question

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I received an answer and will type it verbatim.  "We should’ve written “duelist style“. The reason we do that is to make sure that everybody gets to the same point or location on the stage. The rules allow duelist to hold the shotgun say after using it and moving and with the other hand to shoot the revolver.
If the stage description simply says “make safe” they can finish the shotgun not move forward and just shoot the revolvers from that position. This is clearly a time advantage so we make everybody move to the same location, as a two handed shooter would have to make the shotgun safe at the box. This is done to keep a level playing field" 

 

 

Never mind that every two handed category has the option to shoot any stage duelist as well. Nothing like leveling an already level playing field. Unless of course the real purpose was to remove an option that one category’s shooters might be a little better at. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

It seems to me that eliminating the use of a particular skill in order to “level the playing field” is just about as far contrary to the purpose of holding a world championship as anything I could imagine. IMO. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:52 PM, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I'm not certain how a  local rule that applies to anyone shooting one handed would be considered "Unfair".  Since the match is category based.

 

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

This is clearly a time advantage so we make everybody move to the same location, as a two handed shooter would have to make the shotgun safe at the box. This is done to keep a level playing field" 

 

If the match is category based, why then is there a need to level the playing field?

[Captain Bill Burt]

Were there any double, triple, or quad taps with pistols?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Were there any double, triple, or quad taps with pistols?

No kidding

[Cholla Bob]

Why hinder one competitor because of another's lack of skill. This is a competition not a demonstration.

[Stump Water]

20 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, I totally agree on the berm thing and stuff to stay open. However, I think these are different. They are more akin to the plant and poke rule. Rules like that shouldn't be in a championship match. 

 

So if the range requires it - not the host club, but the RANGE where the match is held requires it - then a "championship match" shouldn't be held there?

[Stump Water]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Were there any double, triple, or quad taps with pistols?

 

Were you at the Raid on Andersonville match that year too?

[Captain Bill Burt]

11 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

So if the range requires it - not the host club, but the RANGE where the match is held requires it - then a "championship match" shouldn't be held there?

I think the restrictiveness of range rules could be a factor in awarding a big match to a club.

6 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Were you at the Raid on Andersonville match that year too?

I've never had the pleasure of attending that match unfortunately.

[Tennessee williams]

4 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I received an answer and will type it verbatim.  "We should’ve written “duelist style“. The reason we do that is to make sure that everybody gets to the same point or location on the stage. The rules allow duelist to hold the shotgun say after using it and moving and with the other hand to shoot the revolver.
If the stage description simply says “make safe” they can finish the shotgun not move forward and just shoot the revolvers from that position. This is clearly a time advantage so we make everybody move to the same location, as a two handed shooter would have to make the shotgun safe at the box. This is done to keep a level playing field" 

 

 

  Thanks Joe for digging in and grabbing an answer for us. I appreciate it.

 The nicest way for me to say this is  that's about the dangdest thing I've ever heard, and I've heard some good ones. What he's saying is in order to "level the playing field" they made up a rule that further handicaps a duelist style shooter. It makes no difference that ONE instruction says to make shotgun safe ON the box they're trying to get all the shooters to equally. Or another instruction saying shoot the pistols FROM that box they're getting everybody to equally. I know, let's add another instruction to make sure everybody gets to that box. 

  This rule is an example of someone trying to fix a problem that does not exist. If they don't follow the make safe on box instruction, that's a P. If they don't follow shoot the pistols from the box instruction, that's a P. Use those instructions. No need to pick on a shooting style to get what was said they wanted. The only thing it did was create the possibility of a P for duelists shooting a round out of the pistols before the sg buttstock touches the table.

We don't see many matches anywhere that have more than one split pistol stage. That'd be picking on gunfighters.

We don't see matches where every stage is some form of a single tap sweep. That'd give a duelist a chance to catch up a bit on a traditional shooter.

Let's not make up new rules to beat up on a particular category. Our SHB has been hashed out and picked apart by a lot of shooters and is pretty dang even. It "levels the playing field" just fine by itself. 

In my opinion when someone says something is done to "level the playing field" has done anything but that. 

It doesn't surprise me there have been no complaints the last couple of years about this rule. If I hadn't won my category there is no way in the world I would have mentioned it because it would look like I was whining. I'm kind of protective of the duelist category or I may not have questioned it now. 

This was a great match that I thoroughly enjoyed. I could tell there was a lot of work to put it together and have everything come out so good. I'd maybe just think about this rule a bit more and how else to accomplish what is wanted.

 

 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

If we are going to design stages to "level the playing field", then all stages should be shot from one spot.  Let's face it, there are shooters who are 6'+ tall and can move to the next position in 2 or 3 steps.  While other shooters who are 5'+ tall might need 10 steps.  There are shooters who are 20 yrs. old who can move like "greased lightning", but the 70+ year old shooters might move like "pond water". 

We have an "aged based" system of shooting that already "levels the playing field".  They are only competing against shooters in their own category.  Look at WR, EOT and all big match Overall match winners for the last 30 years and show where a Senior Duelist, Cattle Baron, Ladies  Senior B-Western, etc. was the overall match winner.

Why put in "P" traps that are not necessary to "level the playing field".   

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I wasn't  there.

 

"If the stage description simply says “make safe” they can finish the shotgun not move forward and just shoot the revolvers from that position. This is clearly a time advantage so we make everybody move to the same location, as a two handed shooter would have to make the shotgun safe at the box. This is done to keep a level playing field" 

 

The way this is described makes it sound like the duelist, to take advantage of this situation, would not move forward but would have to engage the targets from a greater distance increasing their chance of a miss. That sounds like a good balance of choice/risk that is common in action shooting.  That's my take from what's been described. 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Page 9 coming up!!!!  Let's set a record for longest post!!!!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

3 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Page 9 coming up!!!!  Let's set a record for longest post!!!!

 

Sorri, but probably the longest post (or at least one of the longest) was the GUNFIGHTER

thread about 10-12 years back.

 

If I remember correctly, there were over 2,000 post, maybe 2,500+.

 

Doc Shapiro probably remembers that thread as well.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

I'd like to know if plans are to keep or abandon the rule. 

 

I ain't even got to the sg rule. That was a new one to me as well. For those not there:

  When you get to a sg shooting location, let's say it had 6kd. Once you engaged the first target you couldn't move your feet. Even between loads. That aint how it is in the SHB. There were a few Ps because of that one.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Put comments into you surveys they just sent out about EOT. I did exactly that about this and the shotgun.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

On 3/19/2022 at 4:24 PM, Tennessee williams said:

  Thanks Joe for digging in and grabbing an answer for us. I appreciate it.

 The nicest way for me to say this is  that's about the dangdest thing I've ever heard, and I've heard some good ones. What he's saying is in order to "level the playing field" they made up a rule that further handicaps a duelist style shooter. It makes no difference that ONE instruction says to make shotgun safe ON the box they're trying to get all the shooters to equally. Or another instruction saying shoot the pistols FROM that box they're getting everybody to equally. I know, let's add another instruction to make sure everybody gets to that box. 

  This rule is an example of someone trying to fix a problem that does not exist. If they don't follow the make safe on box instruction, that's a P. If they don't follow shoot the pistols from the box instruction, that's a P. Use those instructions. No need to pick on a shooting style to get what was said they wanted. The only thing it did was create the possibility of a P for duelists shooting a round out of the pistols before the sg buttstock touches the table.

We don't see many matches anywhere that have more than one split pistol stage. That'd be picking on gunfighters.

We don't see matches where every stage is some form of a single tap sweep. That'd give a duelist a chance to catch up a bit on a traditional shooter.

Let's not make up new rules to beat up on a particular category. Our SHB has been hashed out and picked apart by a lot of shooters and is pretty dang even. It "levels the playing field" just fine by itself. 

In my opinion when someone says something is done to "level the playing field" has done anything but that. 

It doesn't surprise me there have been no complaints the last couple of years about this rule. If I hadn't won my category there is no way in the world I would have mentioned it because it would look like I was whining. I'm kind of protective of the duelist category or I may not have questioned it now. 

This was a great match that I thoroughly enjoyed. I could tell there was a lot of work to put it together and have everything come out so good. I'd maybe just think about this rule a bit more and how else to accomplish what is wanted.

 

 

I wanted to add that I generally agree.  However part of the situation that I see generally is that T.O.s are being asked to be able to judge more actions then they were just a few years ago.  For example , movement with the shotgun.   Did the shooter close the shotgun early, did he move one or both feet, Is the shooter at the position that he is supposed to be at, is there a mark or a prop that has to be cleared before the shooter shoots.  At the same time, the TO needs to be close enough to stop the shooter if an unsafe act is about to occur.   The TO has to confirm that the timer is in a correct position to pick up shots.   The TO has to ensure that he is not in the peripheral vision of the shooter.    The TO should count shots in order to help the shooter through.  And I'm sure I've forgotten a few.  Additionally the practice of having the shooter look to a mark on the ground for a stop point has never been a good idea,  so how a match director controls where the shooter ends up in a position is the goal.  I know, in the past,  what I felt worked well, is to have a prop at chest or eye height that you had to clear to fire. 

My bottom line is that I don't feel qualified to TO anymore after 25 years of Cowboy Action Shooting.  The camel that broke the back for me was the change in how we treat lever's on rifles  when discarded after the shooting string.  Any way - MAKE SURE YOU RESPOND IN THE SURVEY

[Ranger Dan]

12 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'd like to know if plans are to keep or abandon the rule. 

 

I ain't even got to the sg rule. That was a new one to me as well. For those not there:

  When you get to a sg shooting location, let's say it had 6kd. Once you engaged the first target you couldn't move your feet. Even between loads. That aint how it is in the SHB. There were a few Ps because of that one.

I don't shoot duelest... yet, so the butt rule doesn't apply to me. However this no movement with the shotgun appears to me to be a contradiction to the rules. You could not write a stage that calls for shotgun to be loaded and staged on a prop because that would violate the rules. So how can you write a stage that says you cannot move with the shotgun in the "safe to move" condition when the SHB says that is totally legal?

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I don't shoot duelest... yet, so the butt rule doesn't apply to me. However this no movement with the shotgun appears to me to be a contradiction to the rules. You could not write a stage that calls for shotgun to be loaded and staged on a prop because that would violate the rules. So how can you write a stage that says you cannot move with the shotgun in the "safe to move" condition when the SHB says that is totally legal?

Stage instructions can override conventions. Much the same as if we start with shotgun loaded and in hand on a stage or some clubs have a plant and poke rule. That's where you can't load the sg on the move. Have to wait til you stop to load it. That's why I'm not a fan of club rules in a championship match. Range rules like a round over the berm are necessary though.

[Ranger Dan]

4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Stage instructions can override conventions. Much the same as if we start with shotgun loaded and in hand on a stage or some clubs have a plant and poke rule. That's where you can't load the sg on the move. Have to wait til you stop to load it. That's why I'm not a fan of club rules in a championship match. Range rules like a round over the berm are necessary though.

Shotgun IN HAND and loaded does not contradict conventions. While the plant and poke does, it does not prohibit movement, just the condition of the shotgun, and other stages required movement between positions with the shotgun to engage more targets, so it is obviously not a "plant and poke" or "no movement at all with shotgun" range rule. Only on stages where no specific shooting location was identified was the shooter prohibited from moving after firing the first round of the string.

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

Shotgun IN HAND and loaded does not contradict conventions. While the plant and poke does, it does not prohibit movement, just the condition of the shotgun, and other stages required movement between positions with the shotgun to engage more targets, so it is obviously not a "plant and poke" or "no movement at all with shotgun" range rule. Only on stages where no specific shooting location was identified was the shooter prohibited from moving after firing the first round of the string.

 

 

This is what I was quoting. The general shotgun convention is it would start open and empty and staged on the table. When stage instructions differ, it can override stage conventions but not safety conventions. Another would be sg knockdowns. The convention is that all sg knockdowns can be engaged until down. However if stage directions say you can't, then you can't.

While I agree the SHB says the safety conventions cannot be overridden, IMO the plant and poke rule as well as the sg rule at EOT does just that. I've never had luck convincing anybody about that and the plant and poke rule though and there's probably a good reason. @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L would be the man on that.

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

13 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I wanted to add that I generally agree.  However part of the situation that I see generally is that T.O.s are being asked to be able to judge more actions then they were just a few years ago.  For example , movement with the shotgun.   Did the shooter close the shotgun early, did he move one or both feet, Is the shooter at the position that he is supposed to be at, is there a mark or a prop that has to be cleared before the shooter shoots.  At the same time, the TO needs to be close enough to stop the shooter if an unsafe act is about to occur.   The TO has to confirm that the timer is in a correct position to pick up shots.   The TO has to ensure that he is not in the peripheral vision of the shooter.    The TO should count shots in order to help the shooter through.  And I'm sure I've forgotten a few.  Additionally the practice of having the shooter look to a mark on the ground for a stop point has never been a good idea,  so how a match director controls where the shooter ends up in a position is the goal.  I know, in the past,  what I felt worked well, is to have a prop at chest or eye height that you had to clear to fire. 

My bottom line is that I don't feel qualified to TO anymore after 25 years of Cowboy Action Shooting.  The camel that broke the back for me was the change in how we treat lever's on rifles  when discarded after the shooting string.  Any way - MAKE SURE YOU RESPOND IN THE SURVEY

Hey Joe. It seems to me the more "added" rules we have, the more a TO has to look for. Some stuff is made more difficult by trying to rule people into what we want. What works well for us instead of having lines on the ground is by having the shooter be "close enough to ground" a malfunctioned firearm on the prop they're supposed to be shooting from if they're close enough to ground it, they're good. Another is vertical obstruction. These work for everybody. I'll say there was visible difference in the caliber of TOs. Some never looked at the timer until after the shooter was finished shooting. Out of position, etc. Maybe there should be some kind of screening process. I don't know the fix for that. Someone smarter than me can chime in. You hate for the TO to make the difference on a match, but it dang sure does.

 

[Griff]

TW, as it is with TOs, 'tis the same with stage writin'... some great, some just good, other's ok, and some see attendance dropping... a necessary evil to play with the cowboy guns!  Sometimes I feel that the worst TOs are those that eagerly wait for the chance to do it!  

 

Someone famous in this game once told me... as long as I'm physically able... "... I'll be out playing with my cowboy guns, whether I have enough friends for one posse, or not..."    Or something close to that, anyway!