Rule question

[Widder, SASS #59054]

HEY BWJ,

when are you gonna post a pix of your JEDI GF of the YEAR 2021 belt buckle?

 

Surely you gonna have one made to your preferred design.   I have mine.

Korupt Karl has his.  Creeker has his.   TN Tombstone has his.

 

..........Widder

 

[Hendo]

26 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Can I just say that this is the last time that I will post on page 6 of this thread?

Until page 7, yes.

I'm just here for the learning.

 

 

And to get to page 7. 

[Griff]

If I may interject, with the caveat that I didn't write the instructions, nor a member of the host club... but as an experienced (albeit slow, deliberate shooter), an opinion, and ask a question.  I wasn't there and don't have a dog in this hunt.  In looking at pics of stage 4, the layout, it appears as though at least part of the train prop might have been at risk if targets were engaged from multiple locations w/shotgun.  Ergo that portion of the instruction.  Those that were there, please correct me if that assumption is false.

 

Would it have made a difference on the "duelist" instruction had been applied to all that either choose or are required to shoot duelist, vs the category as interpreted?

 

(Still totally unnecessary, IMO).

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

HEY BWJ,

when are you gonna post a pix of your JEDI GF of the YEAR 2021 belt buckle?

 

Far be if for me to sidetrack a thread, but, I'll leave you a link

 

 

My wife and son did well! I am still struggling to process it all, and that was almost 6 months ago.

 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Our stage writers for Whiskey Row Gunslingers in Prescott, AZ, mainly Turquoise Bill, only contacts a very few experienced SASS members to critique the stages before our monthly match to avoid pitfalls.  We even have  someone who is a PHD English Major who makes sure everything is spelled correctly and properly hyphonated.   Of course that's not me for the hyphonating.  Having multiple eyes reviewing the stages before they go to print helps avoid problems.

[Hendo]

This is the stage in real time. Thanks to Jokers Wild and Photo Shooter.

 

[Tennessee williams]

13 minutes ago, Griff said:

If I may interject, with the caveat that I didn't write the instructions, nor a member of the host club... but as an experienced (albeit slow, deliberate shooter), an opinion, and ask a question.  I wasn't there and don't have a dog in this hunt.  In looking at pics of stage 4, the layout, it appears as though at least part of the train prop might habe been at risk if targets were engaged from multiple locations.  Ergo that portion of the instruction.  Those that were there, please correct me if that assumption is false.

There were multiple stages with those instructions. All of them you had to fire the pistols from the box, you couldn't shoot them from different locations anyway.

[Tennessee williams]

6 minutes ago, Hendo said:

This is the stage in real time. Thanks to Jokers Wild and Photo Shooter.

 

That is one of them. The other with those instructions is stage 11 although we were told that on stages that didn't have those directions also which makes me thinks it's a club or regional thing.

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

There were multiple stages with those instructions. All of them you had to fire the pistols from the box, you couldn't shoot them from different locations anyway.

Sorry, TW, I was thinking about the shotgun from multiple locations...

[Tennessee williams]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

Sorry, TW, I was thinking about the shotgun from multiple locations...

Oh, I gotcha!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

20 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Oh, I gotcha!

Sooooo... So you think we'll get an answer?

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

58 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Sooooo... So you think we'll get an answer?

 

Not for at least 3 more pages

 

Randy

[Joe LaFives #5481]

15 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Not for at least 3 more pages

 

Randy

Or until Phantom "retires" from the forum >   - still checking

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

9 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

 

Howdy BB.

Do you remember if that rule was specific for 'Duelist' only?

 

(p.s. - TN Williams bragged to me about meeting you.)

 

..........Widder

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

20 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

 

Funny you should mention that. Another shooter and I were having this discussion on a phone call the other day. We seem to remember something like that, too, and also seemed to remember the, "you must shoot all shotgun from where first one engaged" from what we thought we remembered was a previous Winter Range.

 

But then again, our memories aren't as good as they used to be. And we very well could be wrong. Or misremembering it from some other match.

[Tennessee williams]

55 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

Sounds like range specific rule to me.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

I had wondered if this had been a Winter Range rule of some kind.  I think if they hadn’t singled out duelist this thread would never have been started.

 

 Randy 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy BB.

Do you remember if that rule was specific for 'Duelist' only?

 

(p.s. - TN Williams bragged to me about meeting you.)

 

..........Widder

 

I believe so.  While I do find holding of shotgun while shooting a pistol sometimes an advantage, it most likely in a split pistol  type scenario.  (pistol shotgun pistol)

[Tennessee williams]

55 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Funny you should mention that. Another shooter and I were having this discussion on a phone call the other day. We seem to remember something like that, too, and also seemed to remember the, "you must shoot all shotgun from where first one engaged" from what we thought we remembered was a previous Winter Range.

 

But then again, our memories aren't as good as they used to be. And we very well could be wrong. Or misremembering it from some other match.

Just my opinion of course but it seems to me like you shouldn't have range specific rules in even a state championship match. Sometimes people not only come from the other side of the continent but another country altogether. How are they supposed to prepare?

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Sooooo... So you think we'll get an answer?

 

May be getting down to the nitty gritty anyway.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

12 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I had wondered if this had been a Winter Range rule of some kind.  I think if they hadn’t singled out duelist this thread would never have been started.

 

 Randy 

I think the thought even hit me when first saw this in stages there,  but actually to be  competitive, a is duelist perhaps the only shooter who might find it an advantage.  Even then only when pistols were split.  Actually with split pistols gunfighter might give it a try.  

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

38 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sounds like range specific rule to me.

Pretty much.  Now the shooting shotgun makeups from where originally engaged is nothing new.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

23 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Just my opinion of course but it seems to me like you shouldn't have range specific rules in even a state championship match.

 

I will respectfully disagree. There are some local range rules that a range must have in order to stay open. For instance, a penalty for a round over the berm is a range rule.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

2 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As I remember, the rule of shotgun butt to table/box was in place in 2019 (Winter Range) and perhaps year before.  A bit out of ordinary but not new to that range.

 

I shot both EOT and Winter Range in 2018 and do not remember that rule or the shoot all shotgun from where you start shooting them that year. Did not shoot WR in 2019 so I can't speak to that year.

[Tennessee williams]

5 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I will respectfully disagree. There are some local range rules that a range must have in order to stay open. For instance, a penalty for a round over the berm is a range rule.

No, I totally agree on the berm thing and stuff to stay open. However, I think these are different. They are more akin to the plant and poke rule. Rules like that shouldn't be in a championship match. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

30 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

I think the thought even hit me when first saw this in stages there,  but actually to be  competitive, a is duelist perhaps the only shooter who might find it an advantage.  Even then only when pistols were split.  Actually with split pistols gunfighter might give it a try.  

 

I know it did not apply on this stage, but as a gunfighter, one of my personal favorite transitions deals with something similar to this... One of the transitions I practice is shooting a long gun at point A and carrying it to point B. While in motion to point B, I will draw one revolver. I'll try to get one shot off with that revolver while staging the long gun. I'll then get a second shot off with that first revolver as I'm drawing the second.

 

It doesn't always work that smooth, but it is something I practice as a gunfighter.

 

I know not all gunfighters will appreciate that, or even like that transition, so I'm now putting on my flame proof underwear. Y'all can flame on.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, I totally agree on the berm thing and stuff to stay open. However, I think these are different. They are more akin to the plant and poke rule. Rules like that shouldn't be in a championship match. 

 

Another one that you used to see a lot, but not much anymore is the "barrel must extend fully beyond the window or bars or whatever."

[Hendo]

1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I know it did not apply on this stage, but as a gunfighter, one of my personal favorite transitions deals with something similar to this... One of the transitions I practice is shooting a long gun at point A and carrying it to point B. While in motion to point B, I will draw one revolver. I'll try to get one shot off with that revolver while staging the long gun. I'll then get a second shot off with that first revolver as I'm drawing the second.

 

It doesn't always work that smooth, but it is something I practice as a gunfighter.

 

I know not all gunfighters will appreciate that, or even like that transition, so I'm now putting on my flame proof underwear. Y'all can flame on.

No flaming allowed.

 

 

 

Until page 8. 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I had wondered if this had been a Winter Range rule of some kind.  I think if they hadn’t singled out duelist this thread would never have been started.

 

 Randy 

Randy:  I didn't want to comment without a review.  I have the shooter books for Winter Range back to 2005 (my second WR) - In 2005,2006,2007,2008 there were instructions on one or two stages where GF'swere to shoot as double duelist. In 2008 they have a couple that mention GF and B-Western having both pistols at the ready on a stage, In 2009 - buckaroo's and buckarettes are mentioned as not having to knock down the KD targets.
Those years also had more verbose instructions.
2010 - no category specific instructions
2011 - cap and ball mentioned on a reload stage - buckaroos and buckarettes mentioned about KD and flying target
2012 -buckaroos and buckarettes mentioned about flying target
2013 -buckaroos and buckarettes mentioned about KD and flying target
2014 -buckaroos and buckarettes mentioned about KD
2015 -buckaroos and buckarettes mentioned about KD
2016-none
2017-none
2018-none
2019- duelists mention as to holding with butt stock touching box on one stage.
2020 - duelists mention as to holding with butt stock touching box on two stages.

There weren't any complaints about those last two but again I don't know the reasoning. 

 

[Tennessee williams]

49 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I know it did not apply on this stage, but as a gunfighter, one of my personal favorite transitions deals with something similar to this... One of the transitions I practice is shooting a long gun at point A and carrying it to point B. While in motion to point B, I will draw one revolver. I'll try to get one shot off with that revolver while staging the long gun. I'll then get a second shot off with that first revolver as I'm drawing the second.

 

It doesn't always work that smooth, but it is something I practice as a gunfighter.

 

I know not all gunfighters will appreciate that, or even like that transition, so I'm now putting on my flame proof underwear. Y'all can flame on.

 That is the way I practice it also. 

 

You'd have been able to do that in this match. I would not have.

  Even if the directions had said anybody shooting duelist STYLE it would throw those shooters off thats not a regular shooter there coming out of the blue like that. Thats the problem with rules that are club or regional specific. 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:42 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Soooo...

 

What exactly was the purpose of the "Butt" requirement...?

 

Phantom

I received an answer and will type it verbatim.  "We should’ve written “duelist style“. The reason we do that is to make sure that everybody gets to the same point or location on the stage. The rules allow duelist to hold the shotgun say after using it and moving and with the other hand to shoot the revolver.
If the stage description simply says “make safe” they can finish the shotgun not move forward and just shoot the revolvers from that position. This is clearly a time advantage so we make everybody move to the same location, as a two handed shooter would have to make the shotgun safe at the box. This is done to keep a level playing field" 

 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

This is about to get interesting.

 

Hold on a second and let me get my popcorn

[Widder, SASS #59054]

34 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

This is about to get interesting.

 

Hold on a second and let me get my popcorn

 

JOE,

thanks for sticking with it and posting a reply.

 

BWJ,

I'll bring the butter.

 

..........Widder

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Hence why Stage writing is an art... And some suck at it.

 

Phantom