Chief Rick Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 32 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Please note that I was not there, but, I would suspect that "start at the ready" was an override of the SASS default starting position. If the staging simply stated, hands touching lamp post, the rest of the sass default of standing upright would apply. "start at the ready" would give the shooter permission to go all 'crouching tiger' if they wanted. http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT TG meeting 2016 (edited).pdf My point being that there was a lot of unnecessary instruction in the scenario(s) that either contradicted something else in the instructions and/or made the instructions confusing. My opinion, the stage instructions were not clear and concise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc roy l. pain Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Six pages and still going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 16, 2022 Author Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/10/2022 at 5:24 PM, Joe LaFives #5481 said: So I've emailed Red River Wrangler to get a sense of why. Hey Joe, just checking back in with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Please note that I was not there, but, I would suspect that "start at the ready" was an override of the SASS default starting position. You are correct and there was an explanation in the book for "Start At The Ready" Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Black Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Why all the questions after the fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 38 minutes ago, john brown said: Why all the questions after the fact? I imagine there were questions prior to shooting as well. But after 700 shooters go thru the match; there are a few more curious about category specific limiting instructions. And since there is only a singular person who can answer, "why" and they were not available to every posse to ask at the moment of stage instruction - these folks are asking now. And since the folks who shot the match paid a significant amount of money in application, travel, fuel, lodging, meals and etc. to attend - I'm sure some are considering whether they wish to do so again if even the World Championships are not going to adhere to "All SASS rules apply". That would be my thoughts on asking questions after the fact - there may be others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 55 minutes ago, john brown said: Why all the questions after the fact? Being in the one and only category this applied to I'm curious as to why we were singled out. During the match I found it very odd to have those instructions included but since it didn't affect how I planned on shooting the stage I put it out of my mind. I had more important things on which to concentrate at the time. After the fact I became more curious so I'm very glad TN Williams asked. I can't imagine things like this getting so out of hand they'd cause me to not attend EOT, but it's sure nice to know things like this can happen and why. Helps people better prepare for a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 16, 2022 Author Share Posted March 16, 2022 55 minutes ago, john brown said: Why all the questions after the fact? I don't see a SASS number or club affiliation so it may be that you're new or just getting back into it, not that it matters. Questions were asked prior to shooting. But, just because it's in the instructions doesn't really give the reason why they were in the instructions. For instance and to put it into perspective. A Gunfighter is allowed to have 2 loaded guns out and in action at the same time(as long as shots can be distinguished). But that limits their transitions. A Duelist must have only one hand at a time on the revolvers. This helps transitions but limits pistol string times. There are trade offs for each style. It's just that duelist is coolest To limit one category of shooter is similar to telling Gunfighters they can have both guns out at once but have to fire one dry before starting the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Hey Joe, just checking back in with you. No word yet. I check emails more than once a day and will continue to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Can I just say that this is the first time that I posted on page 6 of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singin' Sue 71615 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Can I just say that this is the first time that I posted on page 6 of this thread? Can't say that again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 We're there any other local rules applied that anyone knows of beside the duelist one and the sg engagement one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Sure hope other stage writers at club level and above matches read these 6 pages, so far, of this post and learn something about stage writing. Luckily our local club, Whiskey Row Gunslingers of Prescott, AZ, stage writers contact other members and let them critique the stages a week before the match. Saves a lot of problems on match day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said: Sure hope other stage writers at club level and above matches read these 6 pages, so far, of this post and learn something about stage writing. Luckily our local club, Whiskey Row Gunslingers of Prescott, AZ, stage writers contact other members and let them critique the stages a week before the match. Saves a lot of problems on match day. BUT, when new stage writers are 'critiqued' by elementary stage writers, the same problems can keep popping up and the repetition becomes the accepted standard. BUT, when the Wire allows us to discuss these things with 'Coast to Coast' input, things finally have an honest chance to improve where needed. This thread could very well bring attention to many folks about some good 'Do's and Don'ts' in stage writing. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 It’s amazing to me that this thread has gone to 6 pages without a simple explanation of why or what the thought process was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf Quote there has been a movement in the past several years to eliminate as many procedural penalties as possible. Highly choreographed stages are prime candidates for procedural penalties. Define the shooting positions and the shooting problem the competitor must negotiate at each position … and KEEP IT SIMPLE. Quote Don’t try to write an exercise into a stage that might cause discretionary calls or are simply designed to trip up a shooter. Quote Design your stages for ALL SASS categories. Don’t forget the Frontiersman (reloads), Frontier Cartridge (excessive [over 6 rounds/stage] shotgun usage), or Junior categories (tall props). Quote Be careful to avoid designs that take shooters to the edge of safe firearm handling, promoting the chances of awarding these shooters a penalty or DQ for something that you (the designer) could have eliminated with a little more thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said: It’s amazing to me that this thread has gone to 6 pages without a simple explanation of why or what the thought process was. I believe if we'd sit around the campfire and have a couple of drinks this could make 10 pages! Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said: I believe if we'd sit around the campfire and have a couple of drinks this could make 10 pages! Randy Heck, I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 13 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: We're there any other local rules applied that anyone knows of beside the duelist one and the sg engagement one? Thank you for mentioning the SG engagement "local rule" as this applies to all disciplines. I am not a stage writer so comments from ya'll would be appreciated. My opinion is this is actually a violation of the rules and should have been removed from the stage instructions. Let me explain. Shooter is to engage KD with shotgun between point A and point B, but may not move once first shot is fired. The rules say movement is authorized with long gun in authorized condition. Stage instructions should not specify the shooter can not do something the rules say they can. This could easily make 10 pages and be well worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 23 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said: Thank you for mentioning the SG engagement "local rule" as this applies to all disciplines. I am not a stage writer so comments from ya'll would be appreciated. My opinion is this is actually a violation of the rules and should have been removed from the stage instructions. Let me explain. Shooter is to engage KD with shotgun between point A and point B, but may not move once first shot is fired. The rules say movement is authorized with long gun in authorized condition. Stage instructions should not specify the shooter can not do something the rules say they can. This could easily make 10 pages and be well worth it I think we have to defer to local rules, whether in the form of range rules, or stage instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I think we have to defer to local rules, whether in the form of range rules, or stage instructions. The term "Local Rules" has been used throughout this discussion, I believe "for lack of a better explanation" of why the stage instruction were written the way they were, hence the quotes. Multiple stages had shotgun fired from 2 different locations, so movement with shotgun in the "safe for movement" condition is obviously not prohibited. Only on the stages where a specific firing position was not specified, was the shooter prohibited from moving after the first shot is fired. I agree we have to defer to "local rules" when they apply. I also believe stage instructions must comply with the SHB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said: The term "Local Rules" has been used throughout this discussion, I believe "for lack of a better explanation" of why the stage instruction were written the way they were, hence the quotes. Multiple stages had shotgun fired from 2 different locations, so movement with shotgun in the "safe for movement" condition is obviously not prohibited. Only on the stages where a specific firing position was not specified, was the shooter prohibited from moving after the first shot is fired. I agree we have to defer to "local rules" when they apply. I also believe stage instructions must comply with the SHB. What about ranges that have the 'plant and poke' rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: What about ranges that have the 'plant and poke' rule? Never heard of that. Please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Plant and Poke = Stoopid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said: Never heard of that. Please explain? A range rule that states a shooter cannot change locations with live rounds in a shotgun, even if the action is open. Hence, you plant your feet, then poke the shells in. Kind of like another local rule of round over the berm is a .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: A range rule that states a shooter cannot change locations with live rounds in a shotgun, even if the action is open. Hence, you plant your feet, then poke the shells in. Kind of like another local rule of round over the berm is a .... Thank you, still does not prohibit movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 51 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said: Thank you, still does not prohibit movement. You are correct Plant and Poke does not prohibit shooting from more than one location it just prohibits putting live shells in the chamber until at least one foot is planted. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc roy l. pain Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Thing that is different here is that the range that shoots “plant and poke” does it for all shooters entered in the match, not just a specific category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 7 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I think we have to defer to local rules, whether in the form of range rules, or stage instructions. This is NOT Uncle Mikes Saturday throw lead downrange and hope we remember to keep score get together. This is End of Trail. Too many people are coming to this match with years of practice, planning and aspirations - hoping to perform at the very best of their abilities. While geographic requirements may require State events to occur at ranges with certain limitations (the state or area may have no range capable of hosting without given challenges) - there is no excuse for this at an event that could be hosted anywhere in the country or world for that matter. Placing restrictions/ requirements that are not in line with SASS rules AND are contrary to established practices, experiences and expectations should disallow a club/ range/ facility from putting on a World or National Championship match. It is exactly that simple and this type of instruction should have been corrected and removed at the first draft of stage review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 @Creeker, SASS #43022I’m not sure how you made the jump from me saying we, as shooters in a competition, have to defer to local rules/stage instructions to me approving or disapproving of a specific rule or instruction. In this case, I’m with TW, it shouldn’t have been written that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said: @Creeker, SASS #43022I’m not sure how you made the jump from me saying we, as shooters in a competition, have to defer to local rules/stage instructions to me approving or disapproving of a specific rule or instruction. In this case, I’m with TW, it shouldn’t have been written that way. I apologize as I understood your post as supporting that we should be deferring to and accepting of local rules being instituted at End of Trail. Not as you were apparently stating; at some ranges and under some circumstances there may be instances where unavoidable range conditions/ requirements exist that force deferment to local rules. And while I agree with the above and understand circumstance may dictate at "some" venues certain conditions. But at a match the caliber of End of Trail - there should be no "local rules" to have to defer to. I should have been clearer myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Uhhhh... This wasn't a range rule nor club rule (WR/EOT), is not a club. These were bizarre Stage instructions with one that applied to only one category - Duelists. And no answer as to what was the thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 Wonder what the record is for pages? seems like bizarre instructions with no apparent reason. Ive read the instructions and watched videos of the stage. As a Duelist i see no reason to hold the shotgun as you fired the first pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 43 minutes ago, El Muerto Negro said: Wonder what the record is for pages? seems like bizarre instructions with no apparent reason. Ive read the instructions and watched videos of the stage. As a Duelist i see no reason to hold the shotgun as you fired the first pistol. It sure beats me. Only thing I see it doing is throwing off your timing. It makes you slow down to make sure the butt stock is on the box before the first round is out of the pistols. Also, the butt stock having to be touching was superfluous IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 Can I just say that this is the last time that I will post on page 6 of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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