J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I’ve been shooting Duelist for 22+ years and been in many a Posse Marshal walk through. More times than you would think, someone would ask the question “can I hold my shotgun while I shoot my pistols. it is my opinion this was to answer the question but to make sure the SG was Made Safe and in contact with the table the word BUTT was included where “shotgun must be in contact with table” would have probably worked. If you insist on a Level Playing Field, then making all shooters go to table and then staging or partially staging before shooting a pistol seems to be the answers. As for where to shoot SG, I’ve seen the all one place used quite often in my travels, including WR and Previous EOTs. Nothing new! JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 The shotgun is defined in the rule book as "safe" for movement or discard when it meets certain conditions. This "safe" condition is UNIVERSAL across all categories. There is ZERO reason that can be justified to create a rule or required condition out of thin air that ONLY affects a singular category or shooting style (and is contrary to practice and muscle memory). AS LONG AS the firearms are safe for handle or discard... There is no safety issue. AS LONG AS the shooter is in the defined space/ position for shooting... There is no shooting position issue. Then allow the shooter to engage the stage to the best of their abilities within the ACCEPTED and known rulebook. The World Championships should be inviolate adhering to all SASS rules apply and attempting to add additional conditions or limitations should have been immediately over ruled. If this was in response to a perceived potential issue - there are MUCH better ways to control and mandate where the guns are staged or shot from. Sight barriers and upright markers with required "rounds must pass (left or right) side" directions. These will place the shooter where ever you want them without "new" rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 9 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: The shotgun is defined in the rule book as "safe" for movement or discard when it meets certain conditions. This "safe" condition is UNIVERSAL across all categories. There is ZERO reason that can be justified to create a rule or required condition out of thin air that ONLY affects a singular category or shooting style (and is contrary to practice and muscle memory). AS LONG AS the firearms are safe for handle or discard... AS LONG AS the shooter is in the defined space/ position for shooting... Then allow the shooter to engage the stage to the best of their abilities within the ACCEPTED and known rulebook. The World Championships should be inviolate adhering to all SASS rules apply and attempting to add additional conditions or limitations should have been immediately over ruled. AMEN! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: There was ZERO advantage regarding shooting position on this stage. I'm not positing there was. But looking at the wording on the page that TW posted a picture of... Quote ... but the shotgun butt must be touching the box. ... tells me that the stage writer didn't want anyone stopping short of "the box", shooting the last two SG, then getting started with the first pistol before arriving at "the box". Whether it was a perceived advantage or perceived safety issue I can't say. But it's evident that, for whatever reason, the stage writer wanted the shooter at "the box" before the first pistol round went down range. The stage writer realized that, without the "note", anybody shooting the first pistol one-handed on that stage could get started before being at "the box". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Stump Water said: ... tells me that the stage writer didn't want anyone stopping short of "the box", shooting the last two SG, then getting started with the first pistol before arriving at "the box". Nope - didn't have to be at the box to shoot the last 2 SG targets and again, shooting a foot or so to the right of the box wasn't an advantage. Sometimes Stage Writers...that may lack in shooting ability will write in crap that's not necessary and all it does is make the stage instructions un-necessarily wordy. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Nope - didn't have to be at the box to shoot the last 2 SG targets and again, shooting a foot or so to the right of the box wasn't an advantage. Right, but as I said, the stage writer didn't want you to get started with the first pistol before arriving at "the box". 4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Sometimes Stage Writers... will write in crap that's not necessary and all it does is make the stage instructions un-necessarily wordy. True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Like I posted before though, the instructions said "duelists" not duelist style and the PM asked if there were any duelists on the posse. We raised our hands and he said, "yall can shoot the revolvers while holding the shotgun but the buttstock has to be touching the box FIRST". We can't go by assumptions just what is written and clarified by the PM. I'd say it's an ever evolving thing for stage writers. They find stuff that works and continue to use it. They find stuff that looks good on paper but not so good in real life and drop it. To me, if this was about position its superfluous because you had to make sg safe at that position and revolvers had to be fired from that position also so you HAVE to be there anyway. The negative affects it has on a duelist vs other categories is it delays their first shot and messes with timing. It also introduces a potential P. There is also as BWJ pointed out, the potential inconsistency from posse to posse. I'm just saying that coming from my point of view maybe this is an added rule that shouldn't be. So Classics didn't have to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 13 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: So Classics didn't have to? On our posse it was only duelists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 30 minutes ago, Stump Water said: Right, but as I said, the stage writer didn't want you to get started with the first pistol before arriving at "the box". The sg had to be restaged on the box. The pistols had to be shot from pos2. Those 2 criteria establish position. The added rule only adds the possibility of earning a p if a shot is fired from the pistol before the sg butt is in contact with the table. I'm sure not trying to come off as whining and if I hadn't won my category I'd have never mentioned it just for that fact, but I do think it should be addressed for next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said: but I do think it should be addressed for next time Yeah...by better Stage Writers... Just my lousy opinion... Phantom 39 minutes ago, Stump Water said: Right, but as I said, the stage writer didn't want you to get started with the first pistol before arriving at "the box". Agreed - but this is nothing more than micro-managing the shooters...in my so well received opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: So Classics didn't have to? 1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said: On our posse it was only duelists. As Tennessee said, our PM asked how many are Duelists, not how many are shooting Duelist Style. We were told that we, as Duelists could hold our shotguns while shooting the pistols but the butt of the shotgun had to be touching the table, there was never any mention of anyone shooting Duelist style. I'm slow enough it doesn't affect me but it did seem odd to single out one group of shooters. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Here it is straight from the stage instructions. Only Duelists were called out. I think people are jealous that we're the coolest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 OK, at this point I want to hear about the duelist shooting both pistols holding his shotgun planted like a flag on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I'm now really curious if Classic's were allowed to. Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: I'm now really curious if Classic's were allowed to. Anyone know? I'd say that's going to depend on the PM they had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 17 minutes ago, Hendo said: OK, at this point I want to hear about the duelist shooting both pistols holding his shotgun planted like a flag on the box. It's more about getting a p for shooting a round out of the 1st pistol before the shotgun is grounded. I can't speak for other double duelist style shooters but it'll throw your timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: I'd say that's going to depend on the PM they had. Perhaps but until a PM that attended the the meeting or a Classic pipes in we're just speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Perhaps but until a PM that attended the the meeting or a Classic pipes in we're just speculating. Our PM read it straight from the stage instructions, only Duelists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 49 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said: Here it is straight from the stage instructions. Only Duelists were called out. I think people are jealous that we're the coolest. Duelist has obviously not been coolest since I stopped shooting that way... But back to the stage instruction. What an incredibly un needed instruction; apparently the stage writer wanted the shooter DIRECTLY BEHIND the box to shoot pistols and feared the Duelist shooters would not move fully behind the box if they chose to not discard their shotgun. If that was indeed a valid concern; it could have EASILY been addressed by: Stating make shotgun safe on box THEN use pistols to engage... OR Place an upright marker at the LEFT edge of the box - stating RH shotgun rounds and all pistol rounds must pass RIGHT side of upright marker (changing the shotgun instruction to simply "make safe" and not saying "on box"). OR Place an upright marker on the RIGHT edge of the box - stating RH shotgun rounds must pass LEFT side of marker - all pistol rounds must pass RIGHT side (eliminating any perceived advantage to retaining shotgun in hand {and if there were an advantage to retain - the option is available to everyone}). Any of the above fix shooter positioning WITHOUT singling out or changing rules for a category/ style of shooter. I always said that when I write a match - I go thru that match dozens of times analyzing it from every variance I can consider - how does it affect... The Gunfighter The Duelist (double or singlular) The Supported shooter The BP shooter The crossdraw user Tall, short, Right handed, Left handed SxS, 97, 87 I look for anything that my writing may unduly burden, hazard or interfere with. And I look for every opportunity that my writing may unfairly offer options to some that are not available to all. I try to create positioning/ staging requirements that force shooters by the instruction or prop to be where I want them to continue the stage. But I do not,under any circumstance, create new rules or unexpected conditions to fix my challenged stage - I rewrite the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Shooting Bull said: Our PM read it straight from the stage instructions, only Duelists. Thanks and did you have any classic cowboys or girls on the posse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Thanks and did you have any classic cowboys or girls on the posse? Ours did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Thanks and did you have any classic cowboys or girls on the posse? I believe so but can't swear to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 So I've emailed Red River Wrangler to get a sense of why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 This should be...interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 I thought Classics were just Duelists in fancy duds with some extra trinkets hangin off em. Seems they should have had to abide by the same rules. Also our slow loading brethren the Frontiersman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, Straight Arrow Hombre said: I thought Classics were just Duelists in fancy duds with some extra trinkets hangin off em. Seems they should have had to abide by the same rules. Also our slow loading brethren the Frontiersman. Call a CC or a Frontiersman a "Duelist" and they'll go nuclear on ya... "I'm NOT a Duelist! I'm a Classic Cowboy!!!!" "I'm a Frontiersman...not a lowly Duelist!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Call a CC or a Frontiersman a "Duelist" and they'll go nuclear on ya... "I'm NOT a Duelist! I'm a Classic Cowboy!!!!" "I'm a Frontiersman...not a lowly Duelist!" Well....I am a bit of an antagonist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: The sg had to be restaged on the box. The pistols had to be shot from pos2. Those 2 criteria establish position. The added rule only adds the possibility of earning a p if a shot is fired from the pistol before the sg butt is in contact with the table. I do think it should be addressed for next time. Agreed. 4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Agreed - but this is nothing more than micro-managing the shooters...in my so well received opinion. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 WOW!!!! Need to slow down the Duelists from having an advantage over the two handed or gunfighter shooters!!!! Is it anywhere in the "Handbook" or "Conventions" that this is a rule of SASS on "transition" of firearms in SASS "sanctioned" matches? If some clubs do this, who cares. Some clubs deviate from SASS rules at their monthly matches. Screws their members when they travel!!!! "PROCEDURAL TRAP"!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 11, 2022 Author Share Posted March 11, 2022 16 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: So I've emailed Red River Wrangler to get a sense of why. Any word Joe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Any word Joe? Not yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 23 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Any word Joe? Hope yer not holding your breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake Slim Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 21 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Not yet They just arrived home in Colorado yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Hope yer not holding your breath Why would you say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Seamus Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 On 3/10/2022 at 4:15 PM, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Thanks and did you have any classic cowboys or girls on the posse? I was Posse Marshal on SB's posse. Both my wife and I shoot Classic. Neither of us are fast enough on our transitions that it affected us. My deputy PM and I read every other stage and can't remember which of us read the stage in question, but all stages were read verbatim from the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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