Rule question

[Tennessee williams]

   There was a rule at EOT I was wondering about.

 

"Duelists may shoot the revolver while holding the shotgun but the butt stock must be touching the table."

Is the reason this differs from the SHB because its a regional or range specific rule? I was curious as to how this came about. There was another rule that was not in the SHB explained to our posse as well, but the previous one is the only one that specifically limited duelists so I won't get into it even though it earned someone a P.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Hey!!!

 

All SASS Rules apply...except...

 

 

Didn't understand the need for this butt "rule", nor did I understand the need to have shooters not be able to move positions once SG targets are engaged.

 

I guess now we have the World Championships having "Club" rules...

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

[Ranger Dan]

I saw this in one of the stage descriptions and thought it only applied to that stage. Figured it would get your attention.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

That was simply a stage instruction that made sure every shooter reached a certain physical position on those stages. Since Duelist are the only ones that can hold a long gun and shoot a pistol at the same time (it's physically impossible for traditional or gunfighter style shooters to do that since both hands are busy with pistols) that added instruction prevented Duelists from shooting their pistols without advancing to the box/table where everyone else made their shotguns safe then shot.

 

Stan

[Ranger Dan]

Phantom, have not heard of this not be able to move positions once SG targets are engaged could you explain specifically what is prohibited?

[Hendo]

For those of us that weren't there, can we get a quick scenario on this?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

9 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

That was simply a stage instruction that made sure every shooter reached a certain physical position on those stages. Since Duelist are the only ones that can hold a long gun and shoot a pistol at the same time (it's physically impossible for traditional or gunfighter style shooters to do that since both hands are busy with pistols) that added instruction prevented Duelists from shooting their pistols without advancing to the box/table where everyone else made their shotguns safe then shot.

 

Stan

Not arguing for or against the instruction as I haven’t looked at the stage close enough to have an opinion on it. However, any shooter can shoot duelist on any stage so without the special instruction, everyone still would be playing on the same field. I’ve personally held a shotgun while shooting a revolver duelist in a “traditional” category because it made sense to do it on that particular stage. 

[OK Dirty Dan]

2 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Not arguing for or against the instruction as I haven’t looked at the stage close enough to have an opinion on it. However, any shooter can shoot duelist on any stage so without the special instruction, everyone still would be playing on the same field. I’ve personally held a shotgun while shooting a revolver duelist in a “traditional” category because it made sense to do it on that particular stage. 

To go further down that line, each shooter chooses their category and receives the benefits and drawbacks of that category. I don’t think I understand this need to “even the playing field.” Seems to me all that rule would accomplish is tilting the playing field against a particular shooting style and/or category. 

[doc roy l. pain]

59 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

   There was a rule at EOT I was wondering about.

 

"Duelists may shoot the revolver while holding the shotgun but the butt stock must be touching the table."

Is the reason this differs from the SHB because its a regional or range specific rule? I was curious as to how this came about. There was another rule that was not in the SHB explained to our posse as well, but the previous one is the only one that specifically limited duelists so I won't get into it even though it earned someone a P.

 

From what your saying and the way Stan  explains it, seems like the stage was written like that to make sure everyone was within an arms reach of that table before they could shoot the revolver. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

From what your saying and the way Stan  explains it, seems like the stage was written like that to make sure everyone was within an arms reach of that table before they could shoot the revolver. 

A simple prop. would have forced the shooter into position without adding to the "Rules".

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

28 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Phantom, have not heard of this not be able to move positions once SG targets are engaged could you explain specifically what is prohibited?

So say you have 4 shotgun targets. You load SG and shoot your SG dry (one or two shots). You can not take a step to the left...or a step to the right...you can't even put your hands on your hips...you must shoot all 4 from that one position.

 

Phantom

[Goody, SASS #26190]

1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So say you have 4 shotgun targets. You load SG and shoot your SG dry (one or two shots). You can not take a step to the left...or a step to the right...you can't even put your hands on your hips...you must shoot all 4 from that one position.

 

Phantom

Would you be allowed to put your left foot in, then your left foot out, so long as you didn't shake it all about?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Would you be allowed to put your left foot in, then your left foot out, so long as you didn't shake it all about?

no...but I do believe that pelvic thrusts are allowed...but there are some that I would penalize for doing this as it would be considered Belligerent Behavior.

 

Phantom

[Tequila Shooter]

4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So say you have 4 shotgun targets. You load SG and shoot your SG dry (one or two shots). You can not take a step to the left...or a step to the right...you can't even put your hands on your hips...you must shoot all 4 from that one position.

 

Phantom

 

That seems pretty extreme.  I shoot at clubs with a “plant and poke” rule, but never at one that didn’t allow movement (with an empty gun).

[Flying W Ramrod]

43 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

That was simply a stage instruction that made sure every shooter reached a certain physical position on those stages. Since Duelist are the only ones that can hold a long gun and shoot a pistol at the same time (it's physically impossible for traditional or gunfighter style shooters to do that since both hands are busy with pistols) that added instruction prevented Duelists from shooting their pistols without advancing to the box/table where everyone else made their shotguns safe then shot.

 

Stan

This is incorrect. Any shooter in Any Category can hold a long gun and shoot duelist style.

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

16 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

This is incorrect. Any shooter in Any Category can hold a long gun and shoot duelist style.

 

Please read what I wrote.....I didn't say "Category".... I said "Style" 

 

Stan

[Tennessee williams]

59 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

That was simply a stage instruction that made sure every shooter reached a certain physical position on those stages. Since Duelist are the only ones that can hold a long gun and shoot a pistol at the same time (it's physically impossible for traditional or gunfighter style shooters to do that since both hands are busy with pistols) that added instruction prevented Duelists from shooting their pistols without advancing to the box/table where everyone else made their shotguns safe then shot.

 

Stan

 

Definitely not trying to be argumentative. The instructions said you had to shoot the pistols from that position anyway so you'd have to be close enough to ground it there regardless. 

  Also, we were asked how many duelists in the posse. We raised our hand and were told "y'all can shoot the pistols from the table but the butt stock on the shotgun has to be on the table FIRST. So BEFORE the first pistol shot goes down range the buttstock has to be on the table first."

  There was no mention in the book or instructions about duelist style. Only duelists.

  For duelists and especially me, everything is about timing and muscle memory. I know it seems minor to most shooters but it gets in your head to be going to a shooting position and saying "shotgun buttstock down first" "shotgun buttstock down first" and worrying about a P because it wasn't slid up enough on the table for the buttsock to be down before I pull the trigger. To me, the way it was explained is not a position thing, it's a get in your mind thing. 

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

59 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Not arguing for or against the instruction as I haven’t looked at the stage close enough to have an opinion on it. However, any shooter can shoot duelist on any stage so without the special instruction, everyone still would be playing on the same field. I’ve personally held a shotgun while shooting a revolver duelist in a “traditional” category because it made sense to do it on that particular stage. 

it wouldn't have made sense for a traditional shooter to do that because it wasn't a split pistol type stage so both pistols had to be used from that location. I don't remember the exact wording but I'm sure the intent was "duelist style". 

 

Certainly not a hanging offense for the stage writer for leaving the word "style" off.

 

Stan

[doc roy l. pain]

42 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

A simple prop. would have forced the shooter into position without adding to the "Rules".

 

Phantom

I couldn’t agree more. 

[Tennessee williams]

57 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

From what your saying and the way Stan  explains it, seems like the stage was written like that to make sure everyone was within an arms reach of that table before they could shoot the revolver. 

Instructions said you had to shoot revolvers from that position anyway. I don't doubt that could've been the intent, but it was at the least unnecessary and at most a P trap for a duelist by being instructed the buttstock had to touch first.

[Tennessee williams]

Here is an example. Stage instructions say to make shotgun safe at POS2. Everybody had to go to pos2 to do that, if not you earn a P so it didn't strike me as a position thing. But if a duelist didn't get the buttstock down before the revolver shot, they get a p for that where someone else wouldn't.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here either. I thoroughly enjoyed the match and stages were great. Just trying to point out the ramifications of wording and/or verbal instruction.

[Hendo]

Could it have been written "Stage the shotgun safely, THEN engage pistol targets..."?

Just trying to get some clarity here.

[Texas Jack Black]

  Interesting, What was the purpose for this?  To single out one style seems odd.

[doc roy l. pain]

50 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Could it have been written "Stage the shotgun safely, THEN engage pistol targets..."?

Just trying to get some clarity here.

Absolutely it could have. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

51 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Could it have been written "Stage the shotgun safely, THEN engage pistol targets..."?

Just trying to get some clarity here.

Fact is that the wording is totally unnecessary. 

 

• The pistols are not split (I know of no one that would hold their shotgun in hand while shooting a 10 shot pistol string just to save moving 3 feet).
• The target arrangement offered a disadvantage for shooting the pistols to the left of the box where one could set their SG down.
• The issue at hand will not affect anyone competing for overall...therefore it becomes a "Duelist" issue only.

Therefore...what exactly is the "Butt" rule there for?

 

Words...seems folks like to use a lot of unnecessary words in their Stage descriptions.

 

Phantom

[Shooting Bull]

This stage instruction confused me for the sole reason that I couldn't figure why on Earth anyone would hold the shotgun while shooting the first pistol.  

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Didn't confuse me cause I wasn't gonna do that anyway. 

1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

This stage instruction confused me for the sole reason that I couldn't figure why on Earth anyone would hold the shotgun while shooting the first pistol.  

 

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

Phantom, have not heard of this not be able to move positions once SG targets are engaged could you explain specifically what is prohibited?

A few of the stages began at a shooting location where you'd fire rifle or pistols.  You'd then move to another shooting location to engage shotgun targets.  You were instructed that you could engage the shotgun targets at any point between the two locations but once you engaged one, all had to be engaged from that location.  No more movement until shotgun was done.  

[Tennessee williams]

6 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

A few of the stages began at a shooting location where you'd fire rifle or pistols.  You'd then move to another shooting location to engage shotgun targets.  You were instructed that you could engage the shotgun targets at any point between the two locations but once you engaged one, all had to be engaged from that location.  No more movement until shotgun was done.  

I could see choosing one location or the other to engage the SG targets, but to say you can't reposition yourself at that same shooting location is hard to wrap my head around. What's the purpose?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I could see choosing one location or the other to engage the SG targets, but to say you can't reposition yourself at that same shooting location is hard to wrap my head around. What's the purpose?

I think that they were attempting to avoid moving and shooting at the same time...pure speculation on my part since they said nothing as to the reason for implementing this...rule...?

 

Lord help us...we're getting closer and closer to complete control by the control/safety freaks!

 

Phantom

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

I think it was a simple stage instruction.  The same for all shooters.  Not a rule

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

I think it was a simple stage instruction.  The same for all shooters.  Not a rule

I see...so it's kinda like telling folks how to hold their firearms...just a simple stage instruction...???

 

A stage instruction usually doesn't mess with how folks handle their guns...but...what do I know.

 

Phantom

[Tennessee williams]

31 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

I think it was a simple stage instruction.  The same for all shooters.  Not a rule

Not all shooters

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

This stage instruction confused me for the sole reason that I couldn't figure why on Earth anyone would hold the shotgun while shooting the first pistol.  

 

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Didn't confuse me cause I wasn't gonna do that anyway. 

 

I train and shoot with Tennessee Williams on a regular basis and I think the reason for questioning this is because he could have the first shot off from the first pistol before he would have the shotgun grounded. Not that he would hold the shotgun for the whole first pistol string.

 

Randy

[Texas Jack Black]

 I am confused and I wasn't even there.