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Snakebite

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I know that this was hit on in another thread. I wanted to single it out for emphasis and to make it clear to everyone. 

 

Here are four situations regarding the possibility of awarding the shooter the option of taking a "Reshoot":

 

1. Shooter finishes the Rifle string, puts down the Rifle and takes off moving to the next shooting position. As he is on his way the T.O. yells, "Open Lever". The shooter returns to the Rifle and opens the Lever, then moves on. 

 

Does the shooter have the option for a reshoot?

 

2. Shooter finishes the Rifle string, puts down the Rifle and takes off moving to the next shooting position. As he is on his way a Spotter yells, "Open Lever". The shooter returns to the Rifle and opens the Lever, then moves on.

 

Does the shooter have the option for a reshoot?

 

3. Shooter finishes the Rifle string, puts down the Rifle and takes off moving to the next shooting position. As he is on his way someone unknown yells, "Open Lever". The shooter returns to the Rifle and opens the Lever, then moves on. 

 

Does the shooter have the option for a reshoot?

 

4. In scenario #3 shooter claims he thought it was a Spotter or the T.O. that Yelled "Open Lever". All deny doing it.   

 

Does the shooter have the option for a reshoot?

 

 

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It would be questionable, did the action close as he put it down, or did they never eject the last round fired.
 

Shooters handbook page 14

Quote

-Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear.
- If the rifle is the last firearm used (NOT recommended), it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area. (This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then restaged for further use.)

 

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Question regarding 1 and 2...Was there a live round or empty cartridge in the gun, or was it discarded empty?

 

If the gun was discarded empty, then it was improper coaching, and a reshoot is warranted.

 

If it was not discarded empty, then it was proper instruction.

 

#3:

ROI

Quote

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

- Prop or match equipment failure

- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)

- Timer failure or unrecorded time Example: An RO stops a shooter from completing a shooting sequence due to a suspected squib load, but the firearm turns out to be clear. The RO has impeded the progress of the shooter and a restart/reshoot is in order. The shooter starts over with no misses or penalties (except safety infractions).  

 

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I always enjoy a simple "Yes" or "No" answer.

The question had no mention of safety issues - simply "...finishes the rifle string..." 

YES, YES, YES.

As a new shooter I always communicate with the TO that I will accept as much "coaching" as they are willing to give.  (without the intentions of getting re-shoots)

But then again, I'm here for the entertainment not the Prize Money and Sponsorship income. (sarcasm alert) 

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Question regarding 1 and 2...Was there a live round or empty cartridge in the gun, or was it discarded empty?

 

If the gun was discarded empty, then it was improper coaching, and a reshoot is warranted.

 

If it was not discarded empty, then it was proper instruction.

 

#3:

ROI

 

Saying "Open Lever" is a correct instruction. The shooter doesn't have to take the advice.

 

So assuming that "Open Lever" is a correct instruction, no Reshoot.

 

Phantom

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I’d think reshoot. Shooter was impeded by official. In case of # 3, it’s hard to know who might have said it.  I’d give BOD to shooter. 
 

I see my role as TO and/or PM is to give every competitor the best opportunity to shoot the stage to the best of their ability. If a RO interferes that’s costs them time I think shooter is entitled to a reshoot.
 

I’d not knowingly “help” a Pard who maybe had a miss or a P get a reshoot, nor does any of the guys I shoot with expect me to. I’m sure it has happened where somebody intentionally created a reshoot, but I bet it’s very rare. 

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20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Saying "Open Lever" is a correct instruction.

 

There is no requirement for the rifle to be discarded with the lever open.

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear. 

 

If the rifle was cleared and discarded, and a RO told the shooter that they needed to open the lever, that is improper coaching.

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

There is no requirement for the rifle to be discarded with the elver open.

I understand this.

 

Question is whether that instruction is improper coaching.

 

Going back in my memory bank, I believe it is not.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If the rifle was cleared and discarded, and a RO told the shooter that they needed to open the lever, that is improper coaching.

He didn't say that the shooter needed to open the lever. He just said "Open Lever". A common comment from a T.O. that lets the shooter then decide whether to open it or not.

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I understand this.

 

Question is whether that instruction is improper coaching.

 

Going back in my memory bank, I believe it is not.

 

Phantom

 

ROI (emphasis added)

 

Quote

“Action Open” The command given by the TO to the shooter at the conclusion of a stage when a competitor has discarded a long gun with the action closed. The TO must witness the shooter opening the action and showing the firearm as empty/clear. 

 

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

ROI (emphasis added)

 

 

We're talking about "During" the Stage...not at the "Conclusion" of the Stage.

 

Phantom

No emphasis added nor needed;)

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We're talking about "During" the Stage...not at the "Conclusion" of the Stage.

 

Phantom

No emphasis added nor needed;)

 

And we're talking about the proper time to tell the shooter that they need to open the lever...telling them during the stage when there is no need to is improper coaching.

 

If the lever closes, and it is clear, it is to be addressed after the stage and not during it.

 

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

He didn't say that the shooter needed to open the lever. He just said "Open Lever". A common comment from a T.O. that lets the shooter then decide whether to open it or not.

 

I do agree with you in the event that the rifle is not discarded cleared. In that instance, the TO is giving proper instruction. If the shooter chooses to continue on their way and accept the appropriate penalty, there is no need to force them to correct the action on the clock. That is the shooter's choice.

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4 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I do agree with you in the event that the rifle is not discarded cleared. In that instance, the TO is giving proper instruction. If the shooter chooses to continue on their way and accept the appropriate penalty, there is no need to force them to correct the action on the clock. That is the shooter's choice.

Then I'll wait to hear from PWB since I see that this is a "Shooter's Choice" regardless of whether the rifle is empty or not...don't see how you can distinguish between the two.

 

Phantom

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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Then I'll wait to hear from PWB since I see that this is a "Shooter's Choice" regardless of whether the rifle is empty or not...don't see how you can distinguish between the two.

 

Phantom

Would you believe what @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said on the subject in 2017, after the rule was changed?

 

 


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7 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Would you believe what @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said on the subject in 2017, after the rule was changed?

 

 

 

Do you realize that we are talking about a T.O. command...why are you bringing up irrelevant topics? 

 

I'm sticking to the question at hand...maybe I'm wrong to do so...but the question as I see it is that a T.O can say "Open Lever" to indicate that the lever on a rifle is closed and that it's the shooter's decision at that point on whether or not to open it.

 

Don't put the burden on the T.O. to know whether there is a round in the gun or not.

 

Now if PWB stated that if the T.O. would be giving improper instructions for telling the shooter that the lever is closed when the rifle is empty, please reference that.

 

Phantom

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16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Do you realize that we are talking about a T.O. command...why are you bringing up irrelevant topics? 

 

I'm sticking to the question at hand...maybe I'm wrong to do so...but the question as I see it is that a T.O can say "Open Lever" to indicate that the lever on a rifle is closed and that it's the shooter's decision at that point on whether or not to open it.

 

Don't put the burden on the T.O. to know whether there is a round in the gun or not.

 

Now if PWB stated that if the T.O. would be giving improper instructions for telling the shooter that the lever is closed when the rifle is empty, please reference that.

 

Phantom

Directly quoting @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L in the above referenced thread

Quote

If the T/O tells/commands/instructs/demands that the shooter open the action of a restaged long gun and it is EMPTY, the shooter is entitled to a RESHOOT.

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

He didn't say that the shooter needed to open the lever. He just said "Open Lever". A common comment from a T.O. that lets the shooter then decide whether to open it or not.

 

Phantom

Would you tell a shooter that the hammer of his pistol is down after he holsters it?

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4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Would you tell a shooter that the hammer of his pistol is down after he holsters it?

Yes...because I like to screw with people...

 

Remember, I'm an advocate for NO COACHING!

 

Phantom...remembering why I take breaks from the Stoopid Wire.

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8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes...because I like to screw with people...

 

Remember, I'm an advocate for NO COACHING!

 

Phantom...remembering why I take breaks from the Stoopid Wire.

There are no stoopid 'Wires' there are only stoopid people.

 

I don't run the timer anymore, but if I did, I would be happy to honor anyone's request to not be coached.  

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Interesting path of discussion my question has taken. I was not trying to be coy or to pose a trick question. The bottom line to my questions is this:

 

I admit that I sometime get confused because of my long history of past involvement with the rules. I realize that some things have outright changed and some things have been "Clarified" to the point that they can appear to take on a different meaning than what they were originally. I try to keep up with the changes, but don't always grasp them immediately.  My original understanding of the reshoot/restart issue was that if a shooter was impeded in his/her progress because of incorrect instructions by the T.O., that Shooter had a right to receive a reshoot/restart. The only person that the "incorrect instruction" stipulation applied to was the T.O.. Originally there were 7 people that were designated as an R.O., 1. T.O. who was the Chief R.O., 2. the 3 assigned Spotters, 3. the Loading table Officer, 4. the Unloading table Officer, 5. the Score Keeper. Those were the 7 designated R.O. for the posse. (I do realize that some of the nomenclature has changed) The ONLY one of those R.O.s that was cleared/charged to give instructions to the Shooter was the T.O.! If the Shooter reacted to yelled instructions coming from "Somewhere" other than the T.O., then the consequences were on the shooter, and no reshoot was issued. Only bad instructions coming from the T.O. could be used as grounds for a reshoot. (I acknowledge that the T.O. can take into consideration the situation at hand and rule accordingly). Someone yelling "Stop" must be recognized etc.  

 

In another thread, it appeared that bad instructions coming from either the T.O. or one of the Spotters can now be considered as grounds for a reshoot. THAT is contrary to what I know use to be the case. Thus, my 4 part question to determine if the current rule allows for a Spotter to now Officially Coach the shooter, and any bad instruction coming from them can be used as grounds for a reshoot.

 

I do not remember any such rule change be voted on by the body of TGs.  I have no doubt that some discussion may have taken place at some TG meeting that was attended by a few of the large number of TGs. Such discussions whenever a Group of TGs can be gathered has a good deal of significance and provide some great input. But such a group does NOT have the right/authority to summarily change the rules of the games. I'm not saying that happened, but it just sounded like that might have been the result of such a meeting. One of the primary functions of the TGs is to be the Rule Making Body for SASS. If any rule can be changed without their vote then what is their current function?  

 

Snakebite

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4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

There are no stoopid 'Wires' there are only stoopid people.

 

I don't run the timer anymore, but if I did, I would be happy to honor anyone's request to not be coached.  

Well...actually if you look at some of the BS that goes on ... yes, there is a Stoopid Wire.

 

I'll always pick up the Timer. Someone's has too. Coaching leads to inconsistent competitions.

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

If any rule can be changed without their vote then what is their current function?  

 

We have added new categories to the SHB this year without a TG vote, and adding new categories used to be in the TG purview as well. With your question, recent events, and taking into consideration of the role of the new advisory board, I don't know the answer. Heck, I don't believe they event had a TG meeting at last year's World Championship (or if they did, the results of which were never published). I believe this year's TG Meeting at EOT is currently scheduled on 3 March at 1715 hours at Parson’s Place. Yours might be an excellent question to ask at that meeting.

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BJ... It is a good question to be ask. All suggested changes should be put on the discussion list, debated for some amount of time, and then voted on via the internet. Denying that an internet vote will work would be just an attempt to "Dodge" a vote.   Until I can get some medical things worked out, I'm kinda locked in close to home so won't be at the Big TG meeting. I am very aware that some think that I am just a trouble maker. I don't want to be considered a trouble maker or a "Yes Man". For 30 yrs this game has been one of the Major aspects of my life and of many folks lives. It's frustrating to see anyone take for granted all the work that many dedicated folks have put into this game and the organization. I've seen some very good and dedicated members moved aside for various reasons, some good, some not so good.  No doubt that new blood is very good and very necessary if things are going to continue, or move forward. As hard as it is for some Oldsters to accept change, we must do it. But the first thing that new blood MUST understand is that this game belongs to US, THE MEMBERs. The business belongs to SASS.  I have never disputed that fact and have always wished them well and done my best to support and promote them. SASS and CAS compliment each other. Working together is the way to achieved what is best for both. But ANYBODY that does not acknowledge the FACT that the Game belongs to us, the members, just needs to step aside and see if their absence brings a halt to next months match. Believe me, it won't. Working together is the path to the future. JMO

 

Snakebite

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

TG Meeting at EOT is currently scheduled on 3 March at 1715 hours at Parson’s Place.

I asked about this meeting and format. No agenda has been published. Like previous meetings I think this is an "open" discussion format with no intent to "vote" on any rule issues.

 

I asked this on the TG forum and got no response.

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'll always pick up the Timer. Someone's has too. Coaching leads to inconsistent competitions.

I can not disagree with you about coaching leading to inconsistent competitions. No doubt that some coaches are better than others. The only way No coaching would work would be in a perfect world, which we don't have. There is absolutely no way that we are going to get everyone to keep their mouth shut when someone is shooting. Half the crowd is going to yell when the shooter forgets to put his rifle back in a vertical spot before going down range, or this or that. It's going to happen! The best we can do is to try and limit who will/can be the "Official" coach. If we just say no Reshoots, it would not be fair on many situations. I don't have a simple answer that is correct, but when I take off to the next position without taking the bag of Gold, and you are timing me, you see it happen and you choose to not remind me, then you are a (not mentionable):P 

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8 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I can not disagree with you about coaching leading to inconsistent competitions. No doubt that some coaches are better than others. The only way No coaching would work would be in a perfect world, which we don't have. There is absolutely no way that we are going to get everyone to keep their mouth shut when someone is shooting. Half the crowd is going to yell when the shooter forgets to put his rifle back in a vertical spot before going down range, or this or that. It's going to happen! The best we can do is to try and limit who will/can be the "Official" coach. If we just say no Reshoots, it would not be fair on many situations. I don't have a simple answer that is correct, but when I take off to the next position without taking the bag of Gold, and you are timing me, you see it happen and you choose to not remind me, then you are a (not mentionable):P 

I agree...while I have not been in this game as long as you and have not been involved in the Rules development like you have (thank you by the way), I have been pretty active in volunteering as a PM...and it is VERY difficult not to "Help" the shooter.

 

It's also extremely difficult to be instantly responsive to the things that can happen during a Stage...particularly when one is Timing for a Top Shooter. It's amazing how one's tongue gets tied and all you can do as a T.O. is mutter something along the line of UGH-UGH!

 

Luckily the game just keeps on going regardless of the crazy things we talk about here on the Wire.

 

Phantom

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Phantom... I totally agree. Rules that leave a lot of room for interpretation don't help things one bit. I know full well that many of the rules that were put into place when I was driving the bus were ambiguous. Try as we did, many of them were simply not clear. I do know that Pale Wolf and others have tried to Iron out some of those bumps. In some cases they have succeeded, and in some cases I'm not so sure........ IMO this Reshoot thing is not clear to me. I've watched you time many times, and you can time for me any day. I'm 100% on board with trying to get the Coaching issue down to a minimum. I've seen Coaching to the point that I've almost walked off the set because it was just short of crossing the line. Meantime.... don't forget that bag of Gold.

 

Snakebite

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23 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I wanted to single it out for emphasis and to make it clear to everyone. 

 

I'm just glad we got everyone on the same page. All these running rule threads right before the World Championship made me start feeling like I was back in school cramming for the big test the night before I had to take the final!

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Here we are again with a bunch of very experienced shooters,  all with lengthy T.O. and Match Director experience, all debating what the rules actually require, based on quotations from different sections of the SHB or RO training manuals.  What other sport has rules that require interpretation and debate as to what they say and mean? 

 

Shooters shouldn't have to hope for the right person to be their match official, in order to be properly treated.   But every one of the WTC threads here generates multiple opinions and endless detailed corrections.  PWB is the assigned arbiter, but he can't be everywhere.  IMO, we can do better about rule clarity and ought to. 

 

 

 

 

 

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So for clarity, is "Stop" or "Cease Fire" the only "Range Command" from the T.O. that must be obeyed under DQ penalty? 

 

Otherwise how can official "Range Commands" be distinguished from coaching advisement with shooter discretion, like "Open Lever"? (Think new shooter or near- deaf shooter).

I am asking. 

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